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Bible Discussion / Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3

« on: February 01, 2019, 04:28:17 PM »

That's quite the chastisement from the administrator.  Maybe accept that in your eyes I'm a lost cause.  Anyhow moving along...

Dear brothers and sisters,

It would appear that most Christians have become so fully brainwashed by the divorce and remarriage cult that it is now almost impossible to undo.  Why of all people would Christians defend it the strongest?  Almost all will agree that marriage is permanent, but then give allowances.  So which is it?  Is it permanent or not, because if any allowances are given then permanency cannot be ascribed. 

People will say that the act of adultery authorizes divorce.  So who has weighted adultery as the greatest sin?  For there are many ways that couples sin against each other and I'm sure some are more grievous than others but who has decided that adultery is the greatest sin?  Often the "innocent spouse" is not so innocent.  No one knows what goes on inside each marriage.  What drove the other spouse to seek love elsewhere?  Often the so-called innocent spouse by way of sin precipitated the other to commit a different sin.  Regardless of which sin men say is more grievous, all sin is equal before God.

It seems that many people that because of their selfish desires and sinful hearts are intent on finding loopholes in the Bible.  So even though God is very clear where he states that he hates divorce (Malachi 2:16), where he tells husbands that they may not divorce their wives (1 Cor 7:11), where he tells wives not to separate from their husbands (1 Cor 7:10), where he states that all who divorce and remarry commit adultery (Mark 10:11-12), it would appear that most people are not content to accept God's words as written but look to what the Pharisees asked Jesus in Matthew 19: "Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?".  How does Jesus respond to this charge?  He says, "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.  And I say unto you...".  The same language is used in Matthew 5:  "it hath been said.....but I say unto you".  It seems that most Christians would prefer to follow the commandments given by Moses and followed by the Pharisees than to follow God.

One of the responders provided a definition for fornication from the American Dictionary of the English language as follows:

     http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Fornication:  The incontinence or lewdness of unmarried persons,
     male or female; also, the criminal conversation of a married man with an unmarried woman.

What a bizarre and ambiguous definition.

Let's see some definitions from other sources:

     https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fornication:  In legal use there is a difference between adultery
     and fornication. Adultery is only used when at least one of the parties involved (either male or female) is married,
     whereas fornication may be used to describe two people who are unmarried (to each other or anyone else)
     engaging in consensual sexual intercourse.

     https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fornication:  1.  Sexual intercourse, especially on the part of an unmarried person. 
     2.  (law) The act of such illicit sexual intercourse between a man and a woman which does not by law amount to
     adultery.

Fornication is indeed sex between unmarried persons only.  God is not superfluous with choice of words in the Bible.  But if as many suggest that fornication is interchangeable with adultery, then why does God list both words in the Bible?

     Galatians 5:19-21   Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication,
     uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
     Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you
     in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Even the famous Matthew verses use both words because fornication and adultery are separate types of acts.

God himself also shows us the definition of fornication in the following passage:

     1 Cor. 7:1-2   Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. 
     Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

Now even beside the point that most men and women who are driven by their passions will do as they please and will seek love wherever they can find, and will jump from marriage bed to marriage bed in the hope finding true love, but does anyone consider the children?  How many children are now living in broken homes because of the divorce and remarriage epidemic, thanks largely to Christians?  I have heard that of all occupations the greatest divorce rate is amongst pastors.  Wow!  So then it is not surprising that most pastors would counsel their flocks likewise.  Beware pastors and like-minded Christians!

     Luke 17:1-2   Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him,
     through whom they come!  It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into
     the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

How many children are now suffering because one parent exercised any number of grounds given for divorce?  How many dads no longer see their children thanks to corrupt and biased legal systems?  How many grandparents no longer see their grandchildren?

I am so disgusted and deeply saddened that of all people, Christians would fight tooth and nail to defend the despicable acts of divorce and remarriage!

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Bible Discussion / Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3

« on: January 31, 2019, 11:38:08 PM »

Please allow me first of all to apologize to all the readers that have read through this far and have witnessed the display of drama.  This was never my intention for this to develop.  Please understand that my argument for the permanence of marriage has nothing to do with me or the representatives of this website, but lies solely with the truth.

If the administrator has discerned that I am an unrepentant sinner due to the lack of evidence of repentance given in my introductory statements, then so be it.   Can I also discern that there is very little love shown on this website?  And I won't back this up with scriptural verses as these are well known.  I also have a Muslim friend that I have asked to read my post and she is astonished by the meanness in these dialogues - yes it is obvious to non-believers.

Now if I may proceed forward and address a few items raised in the responses:  First off, I know that many couples are hurting.  Every husband and wife is dealing with very serious hurts and many are wondering which way to go; should they continue to work through the difficulties and possibly suffer for an additional extended period or should they finally call it quits for the sake of peace of mind and sanity.  I see that the administrator is arguing for divorce under various circumstances which is in line with 99% of the Christian and non-Christian world, but I know without a doubt that this belief is incorrect and wicked. 

Please hear it again; a covenant marriage is not dissoluble.  Upon entering the marriage covenant nothing can dissolve the marriage except death and only death.  Absolutely nothing can invalidate a marriage and nothing can validate divorce and remarriage.  It does not matter if the husband's abuse has hospitalized the wife; it does not matter if the wife has had 10 affairs; it does not matter if the husband divorced his wife and remarried multiple times; the original marriage covenant is still intact.  The exception clause given in Matthew refers only to pre-marital sex between unmarried persons - hence the word fornication.  As well, there is no such thing as an innocent spouse, for even the so-called innocent spouse commits adultery upon remarriage.  And yes a widow or widower may remarry as the preceding marriage covenant terminates upon death.

Allow me to say again that the greatest blight upon Christianity and the earth at large has been the allowance of divorce and remarriage by the modern church.  As astonishing and horrible as this has become, the churches have in fact been at the forefront of the divorce and remarriage movement.  God states that he hates divorce (which means it is never to be contemplated in the strongest terms), yet so-called Christians make provision for it.  In contrast, Satan loves divorce and hates marriage.  To whom do Christians make their allegiance?  I suspect that God purposely added the exception clause as a strong delusion to Christians that would rather follow their passions than obey Him and that through the misunderstanding of the exception clause would believe a lie and condone sin.

Furthermore, Christians that later become convicted by the Holy Spirit of their adulterous remarriages need to exit the non-covenantal marriages and remain single or work towards reconciliation with their covenant spouses.  Even if a husband has divorced and remarried 3 times and the wife has divorced and remarried 5 times, the only legitimate and lawful marriage in God's eyes is the original covenant marriage; all the rest are illegitimate and will not receive God's blessing.

Allow me to address Matthew 19:7-8 since I have been asked to do so.

     Matthew 19:7   They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put
     her away? 8   He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your
     wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

This provision was given to unbelieving Israelite men, those with hard hearts.  So as Christians are we permitted to follow a practice given to unbelievers?  For God allowed unbelievers to divorce so that they wouldn't kill each other; peace is preferable to constant war.  But even so, these unbelievers will still be committing adultery if remarriage occurs since the covenant marriages are still intact despite the civil divorces.  The unbelieving secular world takes part in every sin that God hates but because they do does not give Christians allowance to follow suit.  Simply put, since God hates divorce, then for Christians this is forbidden.  For can you imagine two self-centred narcissistic Hollywood actors being forced to stay married?  It is for couples such as these that divorce is permitted, but even so, they commit adultery upon remarriage.

Lastly I am surprised that more readers have not commented to the original post, unless the administrator of this website has made it so obviously clear in his very critical response that any support for my understanding would be in clear violation to his opposition.  I am not opposed to criticism but I do not like to see an atmosphere of fear where others do not feel that they are at liberty to respond, good or bad.  So welcome readers, please give me your thoughts good or bad.  Let's all keep learning together.  God bless the administrator of this site and God bless all the readers that have come for a greater understanding of the marriage subject and let me apologize again for the drama that has ensued. God bless you all.

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Bible Discussion / God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage - 3

« on: January 27, 2019, 04:39:57 PM »

Introduction

Contrary to popular Christian opinion and based on what God clearly states in his Word, God NEVER allows for divorce and remarriage, no matter the reason.  Many, if not most churches and Christians believe that God is against divorce but yet makes exception for adultery, abuse, abandonment, etc.  However, there is no Biblical basis for this.

God's plan has always been that 2-never-before-married-persons would enter into the marriage covenant for life, ending only in the death of one or the other.  The permanency of marriage is foundational to knowing the heart of God and seeing the picture of Christ and the church personified in each marriage.

Let's start with some verses.

     Luke 16:18  Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever
     marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

     Mark 10:11-12  And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth
     adultery against her.  And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth
     adultery.

God is very clear in these verses.  If either the husband or the wife divorces his or her spouse and marries another, he or she commits adultery, no exception.

Then immediately the argument is made, what about the exception clause in Matthew?  Let's look at that verse.

     Matthew 5:32  But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication,
     causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Point 1 - Misunderstanding of the exception clause

Countless Christians have jumped onto this phrase, "saving for the cause of fornication" to justify many reasons given for divorce and remarriage.  I believe that the misunderstanding of this phrase alone has done more damage to the Christian body than almost any other doctrinal error due to the millions of marriages and families that have been torn apart.

First of all, God cannot contradict himself.  He cannot forbid remarriage in 2 verses and then make an exception in another.  The apparent contradiction is not the fault of God but in our misunderstanding of the verses.  Secondly, the Greek word porneia, correctly translated as fornication in the KJV is incorrectly translated as adultery, sexual immorality, or marital unfaithfulness in other translations.  Fornication refers to sex between two unmarried persons.  Adultery refers to sex between a married person with anyone other than the covenant spouse.  An unfaithful married person commits adultery, not fornication.  Thirdly, during the time that the Bible was written, the betrothal period of Jewish couples before marriage was more significant than we are accustomed to today and essentially the Jewish couple became husband and wife before they had officially entered into the marriage covenant.  So the intended audience for the exception clause is for betrothed couples and furthermore, if the betrothed husband discovers that his betrothed wife has had relations with someone else then he can put her away.  Joseph also found himself in this situation when he discovered that his espoused wife was with child and wanted to put her away privately until the angel explained what happened.  In today's culture, although the betrothal period has lost prominence, if a fiance has discovered that the other has cheated on him or her, then that is grounds to end the engagement.

Point 2 - What therefore God hath joined together

The question can be asked, do you think that you are stronger than God?  The answer of course is no.  But if we are not stronger than God then how can we undo what God did?

     Matthew 19:6  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not
     man put asunder.

Does anyone believe that we can break apart what God has joined together?  God himself joined the husband and wife.  They are no more two but one.  After God joins a couple, they are joined in Heaven for life.  We may go before a judge to dissolve the marriage before men, but the marriage is not dissolved in Heaven and likewise we go to the church before God to get married but we do not go the church to get divorced.  The divorce only happens before men.

Do not most say that if a remarried couple has remained faithful, then adultery has not occurred?  But to God all remarriage is adultery because the remarried spouse is committing adultery against the first spouse.  The original couple is still married in Heaven.  Only death ends the marriage covenant.

     Romans 7:3  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an
     adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be
     married to another man.

Only after the first husband dies is the wife freed from the original marriage covenant and free to remarry.

Point 3 - Quagmire of confusion from man's wisdom   

I would rather not spend time discussing man's wisdom, but I should point out a few things that need to be asked for those that believe that God allows for exceptions to divorce and remarriage.  For is it not man's wisdom that decides to what degree of abuse that justifies divorce and remarriage?  Is this only for physical abuse or also emotional abuse?  Does minor abuse, moderate abuse or severe abuse justify divorce and remarriage?  And is this not relative from one person to the next?  What constitutes adultery?  Discovering with strong evidence that adultery has occurred?  How about if the evidence is weak?  What about emotional affairs or online affairs for which there has been no physical union?  What constitutes abandonment?  Is it a spouse that has not returned home after 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years?

We would be foolish to think that we can decide what level of sin justifies divorce and remarriage.  Let's consider the hypothetical situation of a Christian single that meets a divorced Christian.  Should the Christian single first need to vet the divorced Christian to determine if the divorce is justified before God?  What criteria would he or she use?  What level of abuse or what type of adultery or what length of time of abandonment?

Only a quagmire of problems is presented when we attempt to justify our actions with man's wisdom and so again why it is imperative that we stop telling others that God allows for divorce and remarriage, when God clearly has never sanctioned it.

Point 4 - Picture of Christ and the church

In Ephesians chapter 5 God juxtaposes the relationship between the husband and the wife with Christ and the church.  This is not done without significance.  God intended that each marriage be a picture of Christ and the church.  Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church; wives are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ.  Marriage is to be a pictorial representation of Christ's relationship with us, his bride.  How awe-inspiring God is that he has ordained the marriage relationship and the relationship between Christ and the church and has interconnected the two.  There is more to this mystery than we may ever understand.

     Ephesians 5:32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

In the same way that Christ does not divorce his church after sin is discovered and then finds and marries a new church, husbands are not to divorce their wives after sin is discovered and marry with someone new.  Although husbands are not sinless as Christ is, they need to live sin-free, but the discovery of sin does not justify wives to divorce their husbands and marry someone new.  Husbands ought to pray for their wives when sin is discovered and wives ought to pray for their husbands when sin is discovered.  May both husbands and wives strive to be more like Christ while reminding husbands that wives are like their church-type and reminding wives that husbands are like their Jesus-type.  And may husbands help their wives to become spotless and pure and may wives help their husbands to be like Jesus.

Point 5 - Perseverance in trials

All marriages will encounter difficulties throughout the course of the marriage.  Some difficulties may cause great suffering and others with lessor but continuous frustration, but none justify the abolition of the marriage.

At what point should husbands or wives decide to discontinue the endurance or perseverance of a trial?  Do we allow man's wisdom to decide?  What does God say?  Will God not bless those that endure to the end?  Are we long-suffering for Christ or do we choose to cut the suffering short and make ourselves happy?

     2 Tim. 3:12   Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

     2 Cor. 4:17   For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal
     weight of glory;

     Psalm 34:19   Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

     Psalm 119:71   It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

     Romans 5:3   And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

     1 Peter 2:19   For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

     James 5:11   Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen
     the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

     2 Timothy 4:5   But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of
     thy ministry.

     1 Corinthians 13:4,7   Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not
     puffed up.  Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

     James 1:12   Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,
     which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Point 6 - Passions of the heart of man

It is a desire of all men and women to be loved and to experience an intimate love with another person.  When a husband deprives his wife of love and respect or when a wife deprives her husband of love and respect, it is natural that a husband or wife would long for what is missing.  He or she after a period of deprivation or abandonment or abuse may step outside of the marriage for that love and respect.  He or she may say that a new acquaintance is his or her true "soul-mate" which oftentimes results in the absolution of the marriage and entrance into a new marriage.  Many men and women choose to follow their hearts over obeying God.  Often friends will advise those that are suffering within marriage, "God wants you to be happy", or "life is short, be with something that will truly love you".  What should we choose?  Should husbands and wives deprived of love find their own happiness or should they continue to obey God and endure the trial?  The passions and desires of the heart of man are very strong and not easily subdued but may be choose to continue to obey God.  Our heads may know what is right and wrong but our hearts justify many ungodly actions.

     Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

     Mark 7:21  For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Conclusion

I hope that my views of the permanency of marriage as I understand it from God's Word can be a blessing to you.  These views may differ from the beliefs of this ministry but I pray that God's Spirit would guide you into all truth, as God's Spirit continues to guide me.  As well I know how difficult it is to continue to stand for a prodigal spouse.  May we continue to accept God's reproof in all areas of our lives and to let Him continue to refine us with fire so that we will be molded into the godly husbands and wives that are pleasing to Him and honouring to our spouses.  The teachings from the links here have also been a blessing to me:   http://marriagedivorce.com/ and http://rejoiceministries.org/.   The book, This Momentary Marriage by John Piper has also been a blessing to me.  Please note, I do not support the John Piper Ministry but this book was well written.

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Bible Discussion / Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage

« on: January 27, 2019, 01:25:26 PM »

Moderator, please remove this thread and I'll try it again.

Thanks.

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Bible Discussion / Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage

« on: January 27, 2019, 01:22:37 PM »

Yes thanks I'll try it again but do you really need to come across as so condescending?

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Bible Discussion / Re: God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage

« on: January 27, 2019, 12:52:23 AM »

My entire long post was cut off and yes the name God with an apostrophe was the first word in my next sentence.  I almost feel like this was done on purpose to make me come across as an idiot.  Was a lot of work to post what I did.  And no I was not using a smartphone but a laptop.

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Bible Discussion / God NEVER allows divorce and remarriage

« on: January 26, 2019, 11:49:57 PM »

Contrary to popular Christian opinion and based on what God clearly states in his Word, God NEVER allows for divorce and remarriage, no matter the reason.  Many, if not most churches and Christians believe that God is against divorce but yet makes exception for adultery, abuse, abandonment, etc.  However, there is no Biblical basis for this.

God

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduction

« on: January 25, 2019, 03:17:54 PM »

Also jumping to conclusions.  Fortunately I do have a lot of grace.

I hope other newcomers receive a warmer welcome than this.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduction

« on: January 25, 2019, 10:02:20 AM »

Hi Jeanne,

Thanks for the warm welcome.  I know that your concerns were said in good faith but let's not jump to conclusions too quickly   It's nice to meet you too.

Blessings,
Fred

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Introduce Yourself / Introduction

« on: January 24, 2019, 10:10:57 PM »

Hi good evening all,

My name is Fred as you can see and I'm currently living just south of London, Ontario, Canada - about 2 1/2 hours west of Toronto.  I'm also a fellow believer and very interested in truth and all things of God and to obey God in all ways and follow His Will for my life.  Although I have been a Christian since my teenage years, my greater awakening to truth started shortly after I became married in the mid 90's - first about false teachers with Hank Hanegraaff and then later about creation questions I had always wondered about but then finally received answers thanks to the Kent Hovind videos.  During these 25 years God has revealed more and more to me on many topics including health, the globalist agendas, pagan holidays, corrupted denominations, etc.   Although I have acquired a lot of knowledge, my spiritual journey has been a bit rocky and God has saw fit to humble me on more than one occasion.  It is my desire to serve God in all ways but the challenges, for which I will not make excuses have resulted in sin, for which I wish I wouldn't have engaged in.  My greatest challenge has been the separation from my wife 10 years ago and so may I successfully endure this trial and not sin further during this time.

I first heard about this ministry when I started researching CS Lewis a few years ago following the revelation given by John Todd (a former high level warlock) stating that CS Lewis was a high level witch.  That revelation shocked me of course and so I investigated this further and came across teachings from this site.  This past week I re-listened to those talks from 2014 and today went onto this website to see what other teachings were available.  I noticed that there was a teaching on marriage and so read the first portion from that article which brings me to why I joined this forum.  Although I will become unpopular for having views that contradict that article I will attempt to present my views with humility.

It is my hope to learn from other Christians here and participate in healthy and God-honouring discussions that would bring us closer to understanding God's truth in all things by "rightly dividing the the word of truth".

God bless everyone here,
Fred