Author Topic: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?  (Read 4104 times)

bluebird724

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Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« on: July 18, 2020, 03:20:14 PM »
I had a discussion with my pastor about forgiveness and repentance. He argues that if a person(s) has sinned against you, you are required to forgive him or her, even if he or she does not repent. I disagreed with him and quoted Luke 17:3-4,"Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him." He states that my interpretation of this quote is incorrect, as "brother" refers to only believers and not non-believers.

Is his view on forgiveness and repentance correct? I would like to hear your thoughts and views on this - thanks!

creationliberty

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2020, 06:33:30 PM »
Is this "pastor" the same priest you mentioned in your introduction? That might cause a few problems in itself.

Whatever "pastor" you are talking about seems to have little understanding of this matter because the problem is that he has ignored the fact that a "brother" is the highest standard. Those who you are closest to (i.e. family) are generally treated with the most mercy and forgiveness, often being forgiven automatically.

In this passage, Jesus is explaining that, even among those who we should be closest to, if there is wrong done to us, we need not wait for them to come to us, but we should go to them to rebuke and correct them. If they have a contrite heart on the matter, then we should forgive them immediately, as Christ has forgiven us. This is to demonstrate that we should not give Christian brethren a free pass.

Thus, the standard operating procedure is to do the same with our neighbors, and the lesson in that passage is for us to be reconciled to our brethren, but not forgetting that we must rebuke them, as we rebuke our neighbors and those we preach the gospel to. When a neighbor has done a wrong, of course we address them on that wrong, and of course, we sometimes have to go to the law to address them, which is part of normal, everyday life, but when it comes to brethren, we are to be reconciled to them, not going to the law for restitution (1Co 6:1-6), but rather, addressing them as brethren, that they come to repentance and correction of their wrongdoing.

Therefore, if this "pastor" believes what he is saying, then God forbid a man assault and rape his wife or daughter, but if such a horrible thing were ever to happen, make sure you hold his feet to the fire of his words, holding him accountable to forgive that man of all his crimes when the rapist does not repent, and invite the man into his home willingly in front of his abused girls. God forbid he would be a hypocrite in any manner.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

bluebird724

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2020, 08:14:13 PM »
The pastor in the example is a Christian and is not the Catholic priest from my introduction :D It's been around eight years since I have gone to a Catholic church. Since I have become a Christian, I have never gone to a Catholic church or institution since.

I agree with your statement and assessment. Your response correlates with John McKinley's article,Can There Be Forgiveness Without Repentance. Christopher, is it alright with you if I place a link here to John McKinley's article?

creationliberty

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2020, 09:00:29 PM »
You can share most anything you like, but people here might critique it, just so you are aware. I do not know who that man is.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

bluebird724

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2020, 09:08:42 PM »
Thanks Christopher! No worries if people want to critique it. I am here to learn and grow in God's Word  :)

https://www.biola.edu/blogs/good-book-blog/2017/can-there-be-forgiveness-without-repentance-part-1
I am posting the link to John McKinley's article, Can There Be Forgiveness Without Repentance, as his response reminded me of Christopher's in regards to forgiveness and repentance. I found it an excellent read - I hope you all like it!

Laura

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2020, 02:22:12 PM »
In the article you shared, the author never defines repentance. He states:

Quote
God's forgiveness is available to anyone who would appeal to his mercy, and the appeal includes an acknowledgement of one's crimes. Forgiveness must be desired and accepted if the sinner is to be forgiven by God. Not all people are included in salvation, since not all people are willing to repent of their sins.

People can acknowledge their sins and even desire forgiveness with being repentant. How do you define repentance?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 02:33:47 PM by Laura »

creationliberty

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2020, 04:25:38 PM »
*She meant to say "without being repentant."

Laura is correct. Even Steve, a member and elder of our church, who evangelizes to prisoners, sees this all the time. He sees those who wish for forgiveness, but have no godly sorrow in their hearts, or they wish for forgiveness, but only have worldly sorrow. Other prisoners know they did wrong, and confess they did wrong, but they will not repent towards God, and believe it is impossible for them to get to heaven.

After Laura, I then followed suit and looked at the blog post as well. She is correct again: McKinley never defined the word 'repent'. You have to try to infer what he means, and based on his article, I cannot figure it out.
Quote
"If we are realistic, then the wisdom of repentance as a pre-condition to forgiveness shows when we consider trusting someone who has wronged us. Unless the person who sinned against me acknowledges what he did, how am I to know he will not do so again? I would be foolish to continue subjecting myself to abuse, and I would have difficulty 'living in harmony' of a reconciled relationship of trusting someone who had wronged me in the past. With repentance, I have some assurance that he is on notice not to repeat the offense, or at least that he knows I am not willing to simply be his doormat with respect to that mistreatment. To move forward in close relationship of trust, repentance with forgiveness is the shared work for moving beyond the damage with full willingness to live in a clear relationship of harmony."
Based on this, it seems like he believes repentance is just confessing one's wrong. Confession is part of repentance, but it result, or function of, repentance, not repentance itself. His article left me more confused than anything.

So I would agree with Laura, and I am confused as to why you wanted to share this article in the first place. After Laura's assessment, I decided to check out who this "John McKinley" is, and the first red flag is that he is a professor at a seminary college. In my experience, that usually indicates he is not of Christ (not in all cases, but in many), simply because (in most cases) you have to compromise a lot of Scripture just to graduate from a theological seminary, let alone be hired on as a professor in modern day so-called "Christian" college.

Even in his short bio on the website, he never speaks of his conversion unto Christ, but rather, just talks about his passion for studying "Christology." The more I read of his writing, the more I see him (if I may use the term) "brown-nosing" other theological professors within his "professional" circles, and this was sickening for me to read because, not only does McKinley thank them instead of the Lord Jesus Christ, he will thank them for information that is deceptive, like how he thanks one of his professors for showing him false information coming from the "LXX" which has no evidence for its existence.
(See Does The Greek Septuagint Exist?)

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [authority] of God.
-1Co 2:4-5


McKinley relies on corrupt lexicons and concordances, and quotes from various new-age bible versions in order to distort the Word of God to get it to say what he wants it to say.
(See Why I Use The King James Bible)

John McKinley is leavened (i.e. corrupt with false doctrines), and his profile is just him glorying in himself for all his accomplishments. Read it for yourself:
https://www.biola.edu/directory/people/john-mckinley
His teachings are mostly made up of the same vague nonsense that I see in the average church building pastor, and it is reflective of one who believes himself to be wise, instead of relying on the mercy of God.

John (i.e. bluebird724), if you are new Christian, I do not want to be really harsh on you in any sense, but as it stands, I do not believe you have much discernment yet. I looked over this guy's work for 10 minutes and I was disgusted with him, and so that confused me as to why you were so eager to post this man's materials, and then furthermore say, "I hope you all like it!" Again, I was disgusted by McKinley's writings; I have not liked any of his posts. Thus, I have to conclude that you're new to all this, and so I hope this might help give you a heads up warning about the dangers of such men (as I'm sure there are many more corruptions surrounding that man than was I was able to find in a short time), because they will lead you astray into a false gospel.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

bluebird724

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2020, 08:31:31 PM »
Chris and Laura, I am actually very thankful and grateful that you both pointed out the serious flaws with the article and even with the author as well!

I have been a Christian for about eight years and I believe most of the Christian churches (including the one I am going to right now) have been 501c3 churches. They typically had excellent music ministries and fun, social gatherings, but compared to your ministry, they critically lacked in-depth bible studies and teachings.

Having read some of Christopher's articles (especially your 501c3 article) and having read your analysis on the article I posted has been a large breath of fresh air. This kind of thorough analysis and learning on the bible is something I have been yearning for and I am thankful for it  :)


creationliberty

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2020, 11:39:28 PM »
I'm glad it helped then. I'm not used to that kind of response.  :o
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

Laura

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2020, 12:53:21 AM »
Christopher, yes I meant to say "without being repentant." Thank you for catching my typo.

John, I am glad to hear it helped you as well. I am still learning myself and this was a good exercise to help me sharpen my discernment. You are certainly in a good place for learning sound doctrine. The others on here are much more knowledgable in Scripture than I am.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 12:59:31 AM by Laura »

UFO

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2020, 01:46:36 PM »
I'm glad it helped then. I'm not used to that kind of response.  :o

Chris Johnson, please write an article about how rebuke is necessary when someone sins against you, and forgiveness only given for repentance (otherwise we're winking at sin and encouraging it by not holding anyone accountable).

I was wondering for a while why you hadn't written an article about the fallacies of unscriptural unconditional forgiveness. Please do.

Right now, I am closely re-reading your article on "Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell". And your excellent part about how repentance is the foundation of our faith, which prompted me to immediately seek out your forum and register, so that I could find out what you had to say about forgiveness and whether to forgive the stubbornly unrepentant.

I do not find what you've written offensive or disturbing at all. Instead it soothes my heart. I've encountered so many unrepentant, abusive, and (pathologically) misbehaving Christians that the question came into my heart asking, "are all these obviously bad fruit Christians going to Heaven?"

I am very happy that a preacher like you exists, because I am sick of continually running into preachings of :
- unconditional love
- unconditional forgiveness
- never judge

What I hate most are the plethora of forgiveness Christian articles out there that can be summarised as "you MUST forgive unrepentant people because otherwise you WILL become bitter AND God will not forgive you if you do not forgive unconditionally". I noticed that something like 60% of Christian forgiveness articles do not contain the word "repent" even once, and 39% of them contain the word "repent" but they tell you that you MUST forgive the unrepentant by twisting Scripture as justification. Only 1% of articles out there correctly handle it by correctly explaining the role of repentance in forgiveness.

Christian preaching and articles are littered with disturbing Scripture twisting.

Therefore I'm very glad to have found you.

bluebird724

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2020, 07:32:03 PM »
Welcome!

Christopher's response on this thread about forgiveness and repentance has been extremely helpful, enlightening and educating. I am still new in this forum, only having joined almost a month ago. But compared to the years of attending many of these "mainstream" churches, the knowledge I have gained here has been immense and pivotal.

http://creationliberty.com/articles/repent.php
Check out Christopher's article,"Is Repentance Part of Salvation", to learn more about forgiveness and repentance.



UFO

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Re: Does Forgiveness Require Repentance?
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2020, 01:08:06 AM »
Hello Bluebird724, and thank you for welcoming me.

I just want to say that I've also come across that forgiveness article you shared at the top of this thread from biola. That article was one of the few that at least mentioned repentance as a requirement of forgiveness, most forgiveness articles don't.

I've read a lot of articles on forgiveness, and what I've read echoes what Chris Johnson mentioned in "Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going To Hell", which is that the word "repentance" is disappearing from modern preaching.

This scary trend was already foreseen by William Booth many years ago :

“The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/291048-the-chief-danger-that-confronts-the-coming-century-will-be#:~:text=%E2%80%9CThe%20chief%20danger%20that%20confronts%20the%20coming%20century%20will%20be,God%2C%20heaven%20without%20hell.%E2%80%9D

« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 01:36:31 AM by UFO »