Ignorance of Biblical Baptism

[creationliberty]

They would not have had to. Baptism performed by the priests in Jewish temples was nothing new to the people, and many in that day were familiar with their practices; much more than they are today. Therefore, the meaning of those practices would have been much more well known to nearly everyone, especially since all had to abide by the laws of the land as well as Roman law, so knowing the laws of the Jews would have been important for all those traveling and trading in that area.

[anvilhauler]

They would not have had to. Baptism performed by the priests in Jewish temples was nothing new to the people, and many in that day were familiar with their practices; much more than they are today. Therefore, the meaning of those practices would have been much more well known to nearly everyone, especially since all had to abide by the laws of the land as well as Roman law, so knowing the laws of the Jews would have been important for all those traveling and trading in that area.

I didn't know that or if I ever did I had forgotten it.

[Laura]

One might claim that Simon, Ananias, and Sapphira were false converts based on your article of the such.
Now I will argue this point because its entire premise is a logical fallacy. It is more commonly known as the "No true Scotsman" fallacy.
I will refer you to the church in Smyrna:
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelavtion 2:8-10
If these Christians (those in the church/body of Christ) were faithful unto death, they received the crown of life.
So, what happened if any of these Christians were not faithful unto death? Did they not receive the crown of life? Were they never Christians to begin with? How can one call them false converts if only God knows their hearts?
It seems logical to me that if any of these Christians were not faithful unto death, they did not receive the crown of life......even though they were Christians. Get it yet? Christians can lose their salvation (crown of life) by being unfaithful. But if after being unfaithful, they repent with Godly sorrow (as you correctly teach), they are added back into the fold.

I don't understand how this verse is supposed to demonstrate that Christians can lose their salvation as you claim. It says nothing of that. It does say that those who are faithful until death will receive the crown of life that has been promised to them, but it does not say that those who are not faithful until death will lose their salvation. They were never saved to begin with even though they thought they were or called themselves Christians. Just like the verses above say that some claimed to be Jews but were not. Not everyone who makes the claim to be Christian is truly a Christian, as the parable of the sower explains. It says they believed but fell away. But does just believing save us or must we believe and have repentance for our sins? Those that fell on the rock were carried away by their sin instead of repenting, thus they were never saved to begin with. What you are saying sounds like works-based salvation to me - if we aren't faithful, we won't be saved. Christians still sin, but we must believe and repent.

Luke 8:4-15
And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 24:45-47
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

[MeganIA]

I have never been to a church building (for reference, most of them I've gone to in the past call themselves "non-denominational") that has taught baptism as a requirement for salvation. Isn't this a roman catholic church doctrine?

[creationliberty]

Yes, they teach that, but if you read the teaching I did on denominations, you will find that all denominations have been born out of the Catholic Church, and therefore, there are many various religious cults that teach doctrines like unto the baptismal regeneration of the Catholic Church.
Denominations Are Unbiblical
This is a teaching that almost no one has read or shared, and there are many reasons for that. People are much more attached to denominations than we might think, and among the thousands that exist, most teach works doctrine, and of those that do, many teach baptism as a method to obtain salvation, just as Barry believes and teaches.

[bluebird724]

I have always found it strange that denominations exist. If we have the bible, which is the Word of God, there shouldn't be any reason for denominations.

As you have stated Christopher, denominations is most likely one of the major reasons why people (like Barry) would teach that baptism is a requirement for eternal salvation.

[trox04]

Okay, so what Barry is doing here is teaching false doctrine because he believes that the work of water baptism saves people. He does not want to say that directly, but his doctrine reflects that, and his testimony indicates that as well. That is why he is deceptive: Barry is not coming forward to talk about his true beliefs.

I don't understand why you keep saying that I'm being deceptive. Is it because I haven't said the man-made term 'works-based doctrine'?
I have already stated my true beliefs.

One must do everything listed in the scriptures to be saved.
Hear the word, believe the word, repent of sins, confess Jesus is Christ, be immersed(baptismo) in water, and be faithful unto death.

Furthermore, I believe I was saved by repentance, confession, and baptism. I did feel deep, deep sorrow for my sins before I was baptized. And I feel that deep sorrow every first day of the week when I assemble with the saints to remember the Lord's death on the cross.

I thought that I made it pretty clear, but I will say it directly: I believe that the work of water baptism saves people.
Do you want me to expand on anything? I will gladly do so.

I already responded to that and proved to him what he said was incorrect

You haven't proved anything. You posited an argument, and I refuted it, then you claim that you already proved your argument. I will address this later in this reply when I discuss the "No False Scotsman" fallacy.

When a man ignores what is being said to him, and he repeats himself as a response without acknowledging what the other person is saying, then you have run into a situation in which that man will no longer hear.

Well said!

Thank you for finally addressing my logic.

Of course, most of you are not going to understand any of that, which is how he is doing sleight-of-hand to fool the people he is talking to.

I tried to make it very simple so that most people could understand it. You claim this is the logical fallacy of "False Equivalence". That is not true.
Using your example of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, and applying my logic to it, the resulting conclusion would then be that Adolf Hitler has the same propensity to kill as Joseph Stalin. Right? Let me break it down for you so I don't get falsely accused of slight-of-hand.
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is Adolf Hitler
B is Joseph Stalin
C is being responsible for killing millions of people
Result:
if Adolf Hitler is responsible for killing millions of people,
and Joseph Stalin is responsible for killing millions of people,
then Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin have the same propensity to kill.

Now let's go the other way. Using my example of baptism and salvation, and applying the logical fallacy of false equivalence, a resulting conclusion would then be that doing anything commanded by Jesus will add you to the body of Christ.
After all, they both have similar characteristics, because being baptized was commanded by Jesus and being saved was commanded by Jesus.
This is a "False Equivalence" logical fallacy, but that erroneous conclusion is definitely not my argument.

To put it another way, Jesus told us that the world would hate us, and eventually, in the days of Revelation, we will be beheaded for Christ. (Rev 20:4) If we follow Barry's so-called "logic," since Christians will be beheaded for Christ, that means that all people who have been beheaded are automatically born again in Christ, and such an argument is absurd to say the least.

I agree this is an absurd argument. However, it is not even remotely applicable to my example. Being beheaded for Christ may be a result of being born again in Christ. What matters most is how one is born again in Christ.

It is important to note a key word in Barry's supposedly "logical" argument, and that is his use of the word 'IF.'

Maybe my format was confusing. I program microcomputers with logical statements, so I think in IF, THEN, AND, OR terms. I like how you formatted the "False Equivalence" example, so I will do likewise:

• Those who were baptized were added to the body of Christ
• Those who were saved were added to the body of Christ
• Therefore, being baptized is the same as being saved

In furtherance of my point, one could also say

• Those who believed were added to the body of Christ

and

• Those who repented were added to the body of Christ

and

• Those who called on the name of the Lord were added to the body of Christ

And I would wholeheartedly agree!
These are not mutually exclusive though. Being saved requires all of these.

The problem is that Barry is actually using the "No False Scotsman" fallacy

I read your article.
Are you saying that Simon didn't really believe even though the inspired record says he believed?
Or are you saying that Simon never repented before sinning in verse 18?
Or something else?
Your answer will be very important information for this debate.

You still have not explained why you think 1 Peter 3:21 is referring to the Holy Spirit baptism. Please do so.

The reason Barry is so desperately attempting to defend his deceptive and illogical claims is because he was not saved in the manner Scripture defines

Or it could be that I stand for the truth.

(while deceptively acting like we are in agreement on doctrine so he can fool others here)

'Acting' implies that I am not sincere. We do agree on many other doctrinal issues, but not this one (baptism as a requirement for salvation). 

which is the manner in which the rest of us here were born again in Christ.

You mean in the manner of baptism? I think you took Romans 6:1-4 out of context.
Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:4

Since the baptism represents being dead in Christ and born again in the Spirit, this is why those people in Acts 19:4 were baptized again; not that they relied on it for salvation, but as a representation of being born again in repentance and faith under Christ.

It doesn't represent. It IS being dead in Christ.

Barry believes he was saved by water baptism, and I can assure him, with certainty in the Word of God, that his belief in water baptism for the foundation of his salvation will end him up in hell and the lake of fire.

That's quite a bold statement. Especially coming after this statement:

Even I do not believe about myself that I have a full understanding of Scripture yet because, the more I learn, the more I realize that I do not know, and have to work harder to understand more.

trying to deceive new Christians into believing the heresies he was taught and adopted

I learned it myself. These truths were taught to me by no one but the Holy Spirit through the everlasting word.

If he really wants to believe what he is saying, he should join the Catholics or Adventists

No, I will not join the Catholics or the Adventists, because they are not faithful.

he came here on this forum because he wanted this to be public

Absolutely right. For if you do not have ears to hear, maybe others will decide for themselves what is right and wrong.

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13

For anyone that believes salvation cannot be lost:
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:26-39

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2 Peter 2:20-22

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 4:1

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1 Timothy 4:16

[creationliberty]

Using your example of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, and applying my logic to it, the resulting conclusion would then be that Adolf Hitler has the same propensity to kill as Joseph Stalin. Right? Let me break it down for you so I don't get falsely accused of slight-of-hand.
if A=C
and B=C
then A=B
where
A is Adolf Hitler
B is Joseph Stalin
C is being responsible for killing millions of people
Result:
if Adolf Hitler is responsible for killing millions of people,
and Joseph Stalin is responsible for killing millions of people,
then Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin have the same propensity to kill.

See how he twisted it? Go back and read what I wrote and compare it to what he just said. Barry literally wrote out the equation for false equivalence, and called it "logical." Of course, him being a computer engineering student (i.e. I did some investigation on him a couple days ago), I know that he knows that he made a major mistake when I called him out on his fallcy. So, instead of confessing his error, he chose to continue the facade to save face, and the way he did that was by changing my analogy to throw off other readers. This is not something I am going to waste my time on, and that is not how a repentant and faithful man acts. Barry should be embarrassed of himself, but again, without a heart of godly sorrow of wrongdoing, he will never see it.

Barry believes in baptismal regeneration, and that men can lose their salvation. So to Barry, I will say: Since you are insistent on trying to deceive new believers with your fallacies and lies while claiming to be of Christ, and you will not repent of it, then you need to go elsewhere because we are not of like mind.

I'm going to go ahead and ban his account. I warned him, but he continues to deceive, and I simply will not put up with it. I should have already done it, but I wanted to try and be patient with him.

If anyone has any questions about how he deceived everyone with that statement, let me know. Please be specific if you have any questions because, despite what he claims, Barry did a lot of sleight-of-hand, and I believe he knows he was doing it.

[Jeanne]

He clearly stated: 'I thought that I made it pretty clear, but I will say it directly: I believe that the work of water baptism saves people.' This completely contradicts Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast.

I don't understand how he can NOT see that just because a person is baptised, that doesn't mean they are saved or how he can believe that a person who has come to genuine repentance and godly sorrow and cried out to Jesus to save him is not saved UNTIL they get baptised! That is just absurd beyond belief and it's clear that Barry has no understanding of the true Gospel...

[creationliberty]

Part of it is his mentality. He claims he's been "saved" for a few years, and during that time, he joined a fraternity in college. (I won't say where or what to protect his personal information because he did not provide us this information in his introduction.) I do not condemn anyone who does that, but I have a hard time understanding how someone can be a sanctified Christian and part of a college fraternity at the same time because it is contradictory to the doctrine of sanctification; however, that being said, it makes sense for Barry to join it because of his belief in being saved by water instead of the blood of Jesus.

In many cases today, water baptism is a ritual of initiation that is for show, not a duty of obedience for a servant of God. He is treating his so-called "church" in the same away as his fraternity; he thinks once he has gone through the ritual of initiation, that is what makes him a member of the club, and that is precisely the false doctrine I am trying get people away from when I teach because that is not what the Bible teaches us about the church. This is not a country club, it is a solemn assembly to worship God, but most church buildings are not treating people as members of a body that are supposed to work together to get things done, but rather, they treat it in the fashion of a "membership" to a club, and it's absurd.