Will Christians be raptured before the final antichrist is known?

[Laura]

Earlier today my father-in-law said that Christians will be raptured before the final antichrist comes. I had recently re-read Christopher's article on Christian rapture so it was fresh in my mind and I was excited for an opportunity to share. I showed him the image from the article that outlines Jesus's return after the sixth seal is opened. He then went and got his Bible (I think he reads NKJV) and started showing me different verses from Revelation, which was just confusing me. I couldn't remember which chapter it talked about the seals, but I think we may have been talking past one another. While I was talking about Christ's return happening after the sixth seal is opened, that does not address his comment about Christians being around for the final antichrist. I do not have an understanding of that, but l do know the signs of His return and that many false prophets claim to be Christ.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
- Matthew 24:24

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
- 2 Thessalonions 2:1-5

Is this verse saying that the final antichrist, the son of perdition, will be revealed before Christ returns? Is the verse in Matthew 24 talking about the final antichrist, or just all the false prophets that come before him? Or perhaps this is something that we cannot understand until the time comes? I do not have enough understanding to answer these questions, so perhaps one of you do.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
- Revelation 6:12-17

Is this not describing the second coming of Christ, after the sun, moon, and stars go dark?

It was hard for me to tell exactly what he believes, but I do know that he follows David Jeremiah, a mega-church pastor in California who has a TV show and sells millions of books, DVDs, etc. making merchandise of people. In fact, my husband and I joined a small group my in-laws hosted at their house to watch the "Agents of the Apocalypse" video/book series he was promoting. This was after I believe I was saved, but prior to the Holy Spirit giving me any knowledge or understanding of Scripture, and prior to me finding CLE. I cannot remember a single thing from that series and I think that is a blessing from the Lord! Upon searching for David Jeremiah's stance on Christian rapture, I found all of the false doctrines surrounding this topic that most modern day churches preach. Knowing that my father-in-law follows this man and shares his end-time books and videos with others, I'm sure he believes in pre-trib rapture as well.

Here is the article from David Jeremiah on Christian rapture:
https://davidjeremiah.blog/what-is-the-rapture/

There is a short video in the post linked above titled "The Difference Between the Rapture and the Second Coming." The article says "this coming event [rapture] is the first part of Christ's two-part return to earth." What he is suggesting is that the rapture is not Christ's second coming, that His second coming is when He returns to earth to live with His elect, referring to what I can only assume is described in Revelation 21. "The two stages, Rapture and Return, will be separated by a seven-year Tribulation on earth."

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
- Revelation 21:1-8

This passage clearly says it is a new heaven and a new earth. To say this is Christ's second return makes no sense. That would mean His final return is actually His third coming. There is no Biblical justification for such lies. The article also states "the rapture is a signless event" and "without any warning, Jesus Christ will return to rapture His saints and take them to heaven. Christians must live prepared lives, ready to meet their Savior at any moment." All of the Scriptures that detail the signs of Christ's return, including Matthew 24, are never once mentioned in the article. It's funny that all of these false doctrines are exactly what Christopher covers in his teaching - so predictable. I anticipate my father-in-law will put together an outline to defend his beliefs and to try to convince me of the same, as he has done in the past. I have a document prepared with some Scripture and I can always share Christopher's article; although I suspect it will fall on deaf ears, as he clings tight to the teachings of his favorite preacher, of which he has invested much time and money.

[anvilhauler]

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
- Revelation 6:12-17

Is this not describing the second coming of Christ, after the sun, moon, and stars go dark?

To the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man they will think this is the day of God's judgement because they don't know the scriptures.  But it's not.  They don't know what is happening and they have no idea of what is to come after all of this.  At least they aren't atheists anymore and they are even mentioning the Lamb. 

If they survive they have lots of decisions to make because as a result of this calamity the Anti-Christ comes to power. 

In the 2004 Sumatra earthquake it was noted how far the land there was moved out of place, but this is going to be so much larger as every mountain and island in the whole world are moved out of their places.

Hence when the elect of God are told to move to a place of safety it would be advisable to obey.  After the events of the 6th seal comes the events of the 7th seal in Revelation 8.

[Laura]

I was looking over Christopher's article again and saw this paragraph:

The tribulation of Christians, the son of perdition, the sun, moon, and stars going dark, and the trumpet sounding; these are all markers that we can find in correlating Scripture to show us descriptions of the same event. These are the things we must look for before Christ's return, and He will NOT return before these things come to pass; He will only return AFTER these signs. (i.e. There is no pre-tribulation rapture.)

Christopher also discuses the teachings of Paul in Thessalonians that the final antichrist will be revealed before the second coming of Christ.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
- 2 Thessalonions 2:3

This answers my question of the final antichrist, the son of perdition, being a sign of Christ's return (i.e. the son of perdition is revealed before the rapture of God's elect); however, I do still have confusion on the timeline of events.

In Revelation chapter 7, it states:

And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
- Revelation 7:1-3

This sounds like the description in Matthew 24 and Mark 13:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
- Matthew 24:31

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
- Mark 13:27

Revelation 7 continues on describing the seal of the servants (the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel), then it goes on to describe the elect, which were brought out of tribulation.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
- Revelation 7:8-17

Now this is describing the fulfillment of the elect, correct? As Kevin states, the next chapter in Revelation, chapter 8, starts the release of the seventh seal when God's wrath is poured out and it is my understanding that Christians will be taken up before that. So when is the son of perdition revealed? Does Revelation mention this? I should have re-read the entire book before posting. With the release of each of the first six seals in Revelation chapter 6, it seems to be describing a different man on each of the horses. It's obvious that I need to do more studying, but I also know that understanding of certain parts of the end are sealed until that time comes. I guess I am just asking if this is something that I am missing or if it's something we will not know the full details of until then. I am having a hard time communicating the gaps in my understanding. Does this make sense?

[Jeanne]

It appears that your post got cut off at the end, Laura.

Revelation 13 talks about the Beast whom people will worship, and I believe this to be the Antichrist.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

How could this beast make war with the saints if they've already been 'raptured'? Revelation 13 goes on to talk about another beast that forces people to make an image of the first beast to bow down and worship it:

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

As you know, Revelation also says that:

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Again, how could people die in the Lord during this reign of the beast if they're no longer here? I suppose your father-in-law could argue that these were people saved after the rapture, but there is no Scriptural evidence to support that. In fact, it is not until the next section of this chapter that we read:

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

I believe this reaping is what most people would refer to as the rapture. I could be wrong about this, though, so if anyone can provide correction, it would be appreciated.

EDIT: I posted this while you were editing your previous post, so I didn't read all of it until after I got this out there. I don't know if those people under the altar in Revelation 5 are those that died by the hand of the final antichrist, or all of those who have been martyred down through the ages, including those who were murdered by the Catholic Church. There's a lot about Revelation that still confuses, me, too.

[anvilhauler]

Now this is describing the fulfillment of the elect, correct? As Kevin states, the next chapter in Revelation, chapter 8, starts the release of the seventh seal when God's wrath is poured out and it is my understanding that Christians will be taken up before that.

Revelation 8 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 and the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

I would say that many people are taken out of the world but not via some rapture from God.  It seems more likely that first many people will be taken out of the world by an enormous tsunami from something the size of a mountain being thrown in to the sea.  Akin to Sumatra 2004 and Fukushima 2011  .....   but likely a whole lot worse.

Second is many dead from the poisoning of the water via the third angel from what appears to be cyanide judging by the colour (blood red).  Spectral analysis shows lots of cyanide in space.

[Laura]

Kevin, I think this is where some of my confusion lies. In Christopher's article, he states:

As we read earlier in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the dead in Christ shall rise first. The great trumpet will sound, and all those who are of Christ will be taken into the glory of Christ to be with Him; everyone else will be left on this earth in peace for the span of thirty minutes before a punishment far worse than death will rain down on them.

This would indicate Christ's return prior to the seventh seal being opened.

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
- Revelation 8:1

Jeanne, that was going to be one of my next questions. I always thought Revelation 13 is describing the antichrist, which would mean the Christians at that time will still be around. And I too thought the harvest in Revelation 14 is referring to Christ's return to collect His elect, separating the wheat from the tares. So this would mean my father-in-law was correct when he said Revelation jumps around. This is what makes it so complex and confusing, and also what makes it easy for people to claim whatever they want about the matter. I guess we just need to understand the signs Christ gave us to indicate the season of His return is near and know that the rest remains a mystery until it is revealed. The exact timeline and details thereof are irrelevant to our work.

[anvilhauler]

Kevin, I think this is where some of my confusion lies. In Christopher's article, he states:

As we read earlier in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, the dead in Christ shall rise first. The great trumpet will sound, and all those who are of Christ will be taken into the glory of Christ to be with Him; everyone else will be left on this earth in peace for the span of thirty minutes before a punishment far worse than death will rain down on them.

This would indicate Christ's return prior to the seventh seal being opened.

No.  The answer more than likely lies in the difference between the Day of Trumpets (when Christ takes His elect out of the world) and the Day of Atonement which is ten days later after God's wrath has been poured out on the Earth for that time and then He comes to rule.

Leviticus 23 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

26 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

[anvilhauler]

So this would mean my father-in-law was correct when he said Revelation jumps around. This is what makes it so complex and confusing, and also what makes it easy for people to claim whatever they want about the matter.

The jump around is that Chapter 7 is inserted in the narrative between Chapter 6 and Chapter 8.  Chapter 6 ends off after the 6th seal was opened and then the narrative continues again in Chapter 8 with the opening of the 7th seal.  As with any account of events, as it is being given it is interrupted with "Oh, I should mention this"   {Insert other relevant information here}    .....   and then   .....   "Where were we?  Oh that's right I was telling you about  ......  "

[Laura]

Kevin and Jeanne,

Thank you for your responses. I've spent some time thinking about this and I don't feel I am at a place to begin studying this doctrine. While I still have questions (some that may not even be able to be answered) I appreciate you sharing and trying to answer them. I still consider myself a new Christian. While the Lord Jesus Christ has opened my eyes to many false teaching/traditions, I have much yet to learn. I hope this topic does not come up again with my father-in-law, as I don't feel I have a good enough understanding to share with others. If it does, I will just point him to Christopher's article rather than try to reason without full understanding myself.