Messages

1

Bible Discussion / Re: I don't know what to do...

« on: November 17, 2023, 08:24:57 AM »

You might have to be more specific about what you are asking. I don't think I'd ever heard of the Christian Identity movement until you mentioned it, so I don't know what exactly they teach on those verses you quoted. And just reading your post without the context of what they/you think the meaning of those verses are was confusing to me because applying what Ezra wrote there about Israelites putting away foreign wives doesn't make sense to apply to Gentile Christians. I only have a guess about what you are trying to ask based on a very brief google search of what the Christian Identity movement is, so being more specific might be helpful to everyone here so we can understand.

However, it seems that the underlying presuppositions behind your specific questions would likely be resolved by understanding what it means that Christ fulfilled the law.

FULFILL'ED: Accomplished; performed; completed; executed. - Websters 1828

Chris wrote some articles where he explains this, and even though you're not asking specifically about the Sabbath or tithe, he still goes into an explanation of whether we as Christians are supposed to keep the law from the Old Testament in those teachings and I think that reading or listening to them would be helpful. I found the Sabbath teaching to be sufficient to explain the concepts when I used to think we had to keep the Sabbath, but the tithe one is more recently updated so it may explain things a bit differently or possibly better. Maybe if you go over those it might clear some things up for you, but if you still need help then feel free to ask more questions on here. I would be interested to hear what you glean from the teachings and if they helped.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: New member- greetings!

« on: November 11, 2023, 10:29:18 AM »

Hi Travis,

I am glad to see your post about your testimony. As you've seen on the forum, usually when people eventually admit (or are exposed) to never having some to repentance, they start doing strange, sometimes contentious things and so hearing what has happened to you is very refreshing. I think what might happen with those other people, is that they don't want to believe that they are incapable of having any of their righteousness come from themselves, but they can still see that they are not having the "experience" of repentance, so they get very uncomfortable and might start lashing out or just doing and saying very strange things, or try to force out tears of repentance and then claim they have it. But from what I saw from you, you weren't trying to force the fellowship and you took time for yourself to search things out. Whereas a lot of people think that coming here and talking with us is what will cause them to gain something with regards to salvation, but that isn't the case. We can't do anything aside from speaking to people, ultimately it's between the individual and God.

I wasn't sure what was going to come of the situation when you came on and made your initial post, but I am happy to see that it didn't turn out the way that it typically does on the forum. Chris has recently explained/mentioned the verses that he quoted to you mentioning importunity, and so now us as a church got to see an example of what Jesus Christ said in the scriptures, where you realized you were not saved, but you asked and for your importunity, God heard you and you received salvation. A lot of us have had experiences where we didn't even know what repentance was when we were saved, and personally I didn't even understand what happened to me on the day I got saved until months later. So it is great to hear your experience of what God has done for you.

And the truth of the matter is, I have been feeling quite different since repentance. And now I fear that, in my moment of doubting myself, I have also doubted the Holy Spririt, and perhaps damaged my relationship with God. So that, I will pray for forgiveness, guidance, and discernment.

I understand what you're saying here, but I just want to point out that now that you've come to repentance, you have that childlike humility which made you willing to question yourself, and that aspect is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't know that God would be angry with you on a moment of questioning yourself, however I wouldn't dissuade you from praying for those things you mentioned anyway.

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
-Matthew 18:3-4

Thanks for sharing your testimony. It was impactful to hear, and I thank God for what He has done for you. I hope that you can find fellowship here and pray that God will continue to bless you.

Matthew 5:1-8:
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

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General Discussion / Re: Dietary laws and parasites

« on: April 19, 2023, 10:36:35 AM »

Hey does anyone know what the edification number on the profiles is? I couldn't find anything on the forum info.

The edification number is a point system, once you reach a certain number of posts (not quite sure but I believe it may be 50) you should see the option to either "Edify" or "Rebuke" someone, which will either add to or subtract from their edification number. So when someone makes a really good post, you can give them an edification point. And typically if someone loses points it's because they are causing some kind of issue on the forum (like making false accusations, being contentious, etc.) or there's issues in what they are saying/doing. It's a way of seeing who makes good posts on the forum based on how others here have judged it.

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Bible Discussion / Re: KJV Bible for kids

« on: March 19, 2023, 08:52:19 AM »

I mean, personally I am also confused and was hoping you'd answer Tim's question. Whether you're looking for a regular King James Version or a kid's version of a King James would completely change the answer to your question, so I don't understand why you're bothered that someone is asking you. It's great that the other 6 people you asked understood, but if you're here seeking fellowship with us, it's odd that you are getting defensive and not willing to clarify what you mean for those of us who don't understand.

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Bible Discussion / Re: KJV or AKJV

« on: February 14, 2023, 04:52:45 PM »

Have you tried to look into it yourself Dan? Annalisa didn't know either so she looked it up online, which you could easily do yourself as well. I'm not trying to be rude, it's just that you have tools at your disposal that you could try using before you ask other people who, in order to answer you, are doing the work you could have easily done.

People have given you answers on things which is fine, but when there are things that you could look into yourself like this, it sorta just seems like you're using us as a personal Google search engine for some reason. Annalisa was kind in trying to find an answer for you, but she clearly had to look it up to give an answer so you continuing to ask her questions about it is essentially asking her to continue doing the work for you since she didn't know either, when all you have to do is look it up yourself just like she did.

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Bible Discussion / Re: Question: What about those who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

« on: February 10, 2023, 03:28:55 PM »

I am confused about what you are saying here. Nobody that I'm aware of has requested you to ask questions pertaining to the Bible, unless i missed something. Where are you getting that? You did this same thing already and Kenneth had to ask you about it because you claimed previously that you were advised to make certain kinds of posts when that wasn't the case. Nobody told you that you need to do that.

What you have been addressed about, specifically by Chris, is that you claim you have been saved very recently but the way you have communicated with us does not reflect what we expect from a new Christian. Your immediate desire to jump into conspiracies and worldly topics after claiming you had just been saved a few weeks ago doesn't make sense. When someone comes to true godly sorrow of their sins, that is simply not their main focus. The point of Chris addressing you about that wasn't so that you would just change your actions and start asking about the Bible because you think that's what we want from you. The point is that what you've done thus far has not given us confidence that you were truly born again last month. And what Chris said here sums up the issue I'm seeing:

That's not what we've come to expect to see when one has been humbled to repentance and born again in Christ, and the conversation of a true convert is not something anyone can fake 'til they make it.

What I am seeing is that your efforts to ask Bible questions suddenly and simply agreeing with whatever Chris teaches and says, is you trying to do exactly that--fake it till you make it. And that won't work here, it just makes people more cautious and wary because it didn't come naturally from a heart that's been converted and desires to understand doctrine. It's coming from someone who is just doing what they think they have to do in order to please us or convince us of something. And the fact that you think you were advised or told that you needed to ask Bible questions demonstrates that you don't understand the actual problem that was being addressed, because it is a problem of the heart, it's not something you can just fix by changing your actions to fit what we expect to see in born again Christians.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Why did I check "other" on beliefs? Annalisa's Introduction

« on: February 09, 2023, 12:23:37 PM »

Hi Annalisa,

I really enjoyed reading about your testimony. The way that God brought you out of all the drugs and false conversion was really good to read about. I always enjoy those parts of a testimony because we all have different circumstances that we come from but seeing God's mercies in those different circumstances is amazing.

I have a story to tell about something beautiful that He did for me lately, but I'm not sure where I should post it in the forum.  It's a testimony about pride and what He did for me in that area of my life.  Should I write it here? or put it somewhere else?  Maybe under the "general" topics part of the forum?

Yes go ahead and post it on the general section. I look forward to reading it.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello Everyone

« on: January 27, 2023, 03:22:39 PM »

Hi Dan, thanks for the introduction. I was just curious to clarify--did you get saved before you found CLE or after? If I'm understanding correctly, you were researching things and found CLE on an encyclopedia, and then you started seeing different articles Chris wrote, so was this when you realized you needed to repent and then got saved? After reading about repentance in CLE articles? I might have put that together wrong but anyway I was just curious.

I'm from California too but I moved (or escaped )  to Alabama. I was in Northern CA-- are you northern or southern?

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Hello there

« on: January 22, 2023, 08:14:10 PM »

Hi Morgan. It was nice to read your testimony. I came out of some of the strange charismatic/Pentecostal beliefs that you spoke of so that was familiar to me. I came out from them and learned the truth about what we were participating in, and was broken at how wicked I was for being a part of it. I agree with Tim that I'm sure your experience in witchcraft allowed you to see the strange practices in the Pentecostal churches much easier. One of the biggest things that stood out to me when I was learning about the truth of what I was participating in with that group, was that we were actually practicing divination and I was around someone who was trying to teach us to essentially astral project into "God's courtroom" or something like that for some weird form of prayer. It's basically pagan witchcraft practices that just replace other gods with their version of "jesus."

I found it interesting that the prayer in the car, you admit that it was a selfish prayer, but God did give you repentance and you had the understanding that you were wicked and in need of a savior at that point. I love reading those parts of people's testimonies, I teared up a bit as you were explaining it because I understand that brokenness and sorrow you described. Many of us go through similar things after getting saved where we want to find a good church to be a part of, but everywhere you turn there's just many denominations of diverse forms of wickedness, contradictions, and false doctrines. I'm glad you found CLE though and that it's helped you.

I am from California too originally, just out of curiosity (if you are ok sharing) what area are you from? I was in Northern California in the greater Sacramento area, and I moved to Alabama a couple years ago. And I was also curious what teaching has helped you the most from CLE? The repentance teaching was really significant to me and the "Why Millions" one too because after I was saved I came across so many false doctrines about salvation and repentance and I really wanted to be sure I was saved, but the false doctrine that claims repentance is a change of mind or turning from sin simply didn't make sense, but I didn't find people teaching that it is godly sorrow till I found CLE. So once I understood the true meaning of repentance I was able to understand what had happened to me on the day I finally wept in sorrow over my sin and realized my wickedness before God. It was also very helpful to understand the difference between a true Christian and a false convert. So much scripture just opens up to you once you understand those things. Anyway, welcome, and I hope you find fellowship here if that's what you're looking for!

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General Discussion / Re: Biblical Cosmology

« on: January 18, 2023, 09:31:08 AM »

To the best of my recollection, the actual physical shape of the earth isn't overtly mentioned in the bible,

Exactly. But she believes that all those scriptures she shared DO reveal that the earth is flat. I went through all of them, and tried to see what she was seeing, but she never gave us an explanation of why some things are literal and some things are figurative, so it leaves a lot of confusion (and guess who is NOT the author of confusion? 1 Cor 14:33). You have to go in with a presupposition in order to even remotely see what she is saying, but even then, it doesn't make sense when you look at the entire context and think more deeply about it. But anyway I'm glad you said this because you're not even a part of CLE church and you were't there when we had these meetings, but you are able to see yourself that the scriptures do not prove the flat earth theory. To use Anna's words, the flat earth "can be imposed onto the Bible, it simply is not described in the Bible." And that's exactly what she was doing, she was imposing the flat earth onto the bible, and she prayed and got a feeling in the bosom that it was true as part of her "study" technique. We don't study scripture like that and don't come to conclusions like that.

-------------------

I began writing this analysis of Anna's post before the last call, and have edited it to update it:

So, as an example, (focussing on just one aspect of the scripture) here is how someone who believes in Biblical cosmology would likely interpret this first part of Isaiah 40:22, “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;”

Firstly, the language structure of the first part of the verse, “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,” can be read as a literal statement about the Lord’s physical location in relation to the earth—there is nothing in the language to suggest we should be reading this figuratively. Applying Isaiah 28:10, this verse correlates well with other scriptures in the Bible which similarly describe the physical location of God, the throne of God, and heaven as being directly above the earth.

In the section I emphasized above, Anna says that this section of the verse shows God’s literal physical location in relation to the earth, and that there is nothing in the language that suggests we should read this figuratively. If that is true, that this is a literal statement about His physical location, then this verse is telling us that God is literally sitting upon the earth. Interestingly, Anna doesn’t actually believe that part was literal, as you can see in the following quote from her next paragraph:

Putting the whole sentence together it can be understood that not only does the Lord sit physically above the earth… The Lord dwells above and close to all the people of the earth.

If the section of that verse was to be interpreted entirely literally like Anna says, and that there is nothing that suggests it is to be figurative—well, it says that God sits UPON the earth, not ABOVE the earth. But I suspect that because Anna was trying to use this verse to defend her point, she didn’t realize/ she was blinded to the fact that she contradicted herself in her own beliefs about how that section of the verse is to be interpreted. She doesn’t believe that God’s physical location is sitting on the earth, so she didn't interpret that part literally, but that He’s sitting above the earth. She believes that because it’s obvious that this verse is speaking figuratively--her mind automatically assumed that God isn’t literally sitting on the earth, but that it was figurative.

Secondly, the second part of the verse, "and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;” uses the figurative language of a simile to add further detail. Putting the whole sentence together it can be understood that not only does the Lord sit physically above the earth, but He is also in close physical proximity to its inhabitants, who are “as grasshoppers” to Him. The Lord dwells above and close to all the people of the earth. Though both literal and figurative language have been used together, there is no contradiction in meaning, but rather understanding has been enhanced through the use of both types of language.

Even her analysis of the next section of the verse is off. The fact that we are “as grasshoppers” to God doesn’t have as much to do with His “close physical proximity to [the earth’s] inhabitants,”—it has to do with the fact that we have no power or authority and essentially, God can judge mankind as He sees fit and we can do nothing about it. Hence, we are as grasshoppers to Him—pathetic, defenseless, and as nothing compared to Him in every way possible. But when she read this part of the verse, she didn't interpret it that way, she is still just thinking of God's physical location rather than what the context actually is saying.

Ultimately, as Christians I believe we should prayerfully ask the Lord God Himself how literally and/or figuratively we should be interpreting scriptures about this subject, rather than making assumptions about interpretation based on our own pre-conceived ideas of cosmology, our scientific understanding, or any personal discomfort that may arise from having our worldview challenged.

Anna is the one who is improperly interpreting scriptures based on her assumptions because she is looking past the actual meaning of the verse in order to assert that it promotes her own worldview about cosmology.

And on the note of the implication that we may have “personal discomfort that may arise from having our worldview challenged,” this is extremely hypocritical of Anna, because on the calls when this was discussed in the church, she seemed incredibly uncomfortable with her views being challenged, and not even just uncomfortable, but fearful to even discuss the topic. And she confessed herself that she was uncomfortable in the last meeting when we wanted to discuss the interpretation of scripture. Her incredible discomfort and fear of having her worldview challenged is obvious, especially considering the fact that the Skype discussion that we had been waiting for was awkwardly drawn out without mention by her for nearly 2 months, and after she was asked about it she finally told us she could do it on an upcoming Sunday, and during that week after making this post— she requested an additional 3+ more weeks claiming she needed to “prepare” to talk about the topic. This makes zero sense to me that she would need over three more weeks to prepare to have a conversation about a viewpoint that 1. she already believed before even joining the church, combined with 2. having nearly two months after joining to think about it more and prepare, and 3. after already writing out this post about her arguments. What more is there to prepare for? It truly makes no sense why it would take that long when she already made her points here, except that it was an excuse because she didn't want to talk about it.

It was evident that Anna had an emotional attachment to her flat earth theory, but she kept claiming/implying that we had an emotional attachment to the round earth. That's sort of funny because I actually can't recall anyone even trying to convince her of a round earth or arguing for it during these last couple meetings, because we could see the real issue was Anna's fallacious interpretation of scripture, her immense pride in her "revelation" and her time spent "studying," and her inability to be corrected on those things. Behind her "sweet and gentle" appearance and her seemingly kind and pristine "godly" words, she hides a deceptive and manipulative heart. It became extremely frustrating to talk with her because when someone would rebuke her or point something out to her about what she was doing, she would start out most of her responses with "thank you" or "I appreciate that" or "I understand." It's strange that she thought that we would believe her when she was saying those things, when they were obvious lies. It was basically a bunch of PR (public relations) phrases to give us a false appearance that she's actually listening to us and that she's humbly considering things when in reality, in a burst of emotion, she confessed the actual truth to us early on--that she was never going to stop believing in the flat earth.

She was repeatedly given the chance to just simply explain her interpretation of scripture in context, but she refused. I guess she was content with doing a scripture dump on here expecting us to just adopt her presuppositions and assertions as we read the verses, but when it actually came to going through the scriptures together "... precept upon precept; line upon line," she was "uncomfortable" doing that. She claimed she did follow Isaiah 28:10's instructions on understanding scripture, and if those verses truly proved a flat earth doctrine (which they don't), then she did find them "...here a little, and there a little" (i.e. in dispersed throughout the bible), but she took the verses out of context and added her presuppositions to them which is not how we're supposed to interpret scripture, so she definitely did not adhere to that verse. Someone can take verses from a bunch of places in the bible and wrest them by imposing their own beliefs onto them and claim the doctrine is "...here a little, and there a little" when the bible was never actually saying what they claim it is.

Overall I'm not surprised she left. I'm just glad the truth was so evidently revealed to us about her. There are many church buildings she can find if she wants "fellowship" without having to talk to anyone about scripture or get rebuked when necessary. Or there's also flat-earther communities that exalt the shape of the earth as their god they worship, while claiming they love Jesus. Or I suppose she can go back to being by herself coming up with other private interpretations of scripture based on the feeling in the bosom she gets when she prays. She has many different options about what she could do. In any case, she hates the light that exposes her sin, so if she doesn't want it exposed, she can fellowship with those who hide in the darkness because she wasn't a good fit here. Once the light was upon her and showed the truth about what she was doing, she tucked tail and ran. Hopefully one day she will see her error and repent of her lies and wresting (twisting) the scriptures.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. - John 3:19-21

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3:16

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Introduce Yourself / Re: New member

« on: December 18, 2022, 11:00:20 AM »

Hi Virginia. How long has it been since you were saved? I was wondering if we could hear a bit of detail on your testimony if possible. I'm glad you've enjoyed a lot of what you've found at CLE, it has been very helpful for me too.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: New to creation liberty

« on: December 13, 2022, 07:36:18 AM »

Hi Bill. Thanks for being upfront about your reasoning for being here, that's good to know. I am curious how did you find CLE? Are there any teachings that you have gone through which stand out to you? And also, would you mind giving us some detail about when you were born again at 21?

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Scott's Introduction

« on: December 09, 2022, 01:29:47 PM »

So rather than praying and responding in the Spirit of Christ, it becomes 100 more points of contention.  The flesh lusts for a lot of things and all of them are evil and at enmity with God. One such lust is to strive and to devour.
I am not your enemy

You are demonstrating further to us with every single one of your responses, that you are unwilling to receive correction on anything, and you have no desire to actually address any of the points made to reason the matter out. It seems that in your eyes, "responding in the Spirit of Christ," is equivalent to "responding in the way that makes Scott feel good, ignoring/justifying his wrongdoings and agreeing with what he says even when he doesn't explain or prove any of his points." Nobody is trying to "strive or devour" you. We're asking you to simply address the points that were made and explain what you believe is the big misunderstanding going on. You said there is a misunderstanding, so you explain it. That shouldn't be a difficult request if you truly have actual reasons for making the claim to begin with. But the longer this is drawn out, the more I am convinced that you never had reasons to begin with which is why you are refusing to explain anything.

Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die. - Proverbs 15:10

You keep repeating the words "I am not your enemy," but your actions are continuing to prove otherwise, so saying that means nothing to us--it's just vanity. If you're going to keep refusing to explain yourself and stand on pretense with meaningless words, then there is literally no point in you being here. I'm not saying that to be harsh--it's just true. Your actions are showing a lack of likemindedness with the rest of us here, and fellowship cannot happen when that is the case. So I hope you will consider either beginning to explain yourself or leaving in peace. If neither of those things happen then you are likely going to be shown the door very soon.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Scott's Introduction

« on: December 09, 2022, 09:01:27 AM »

So, you want Chris to be grieved over what he said to you even though you aren't even explaining to him why he was wrong? Is that how you think correction is supposed to work between brethren? You just tell someone they're wrong but you give absolutely no explanation, reasoning, or evidence about why, and then you expect them to understand and be grieved over it? 

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Bible Discussion / Re: The term Christian.

« on: December 07, 2022, 08:05:45 AM »

Did you read the whole thread?  The man you quoted conceded to the scriptures when they were presented, and he came to understand that he was wrong about the issue. He was willing to be corrected, and in the end he glorified the name of Christ all the more, even having his profile changed to say "Christian" (though his account is gone now). This is an odd thread/quote to use to defend against using the name "Christian" because the issue was actually resolved very easily in this case by presenting scripture, and the points Tim made were much more sound than doing a key word search and counting the number of times a word is used (I'll add that I've seen people use that method to claim that you don't need to repent to be saved just because the word isn't used as much as the words "believe" or "faith" in the new testament. It's not a sound method of rightly dividing the truth--you can create false doctrines and make false assumptions by doing that). And no-one was unwelcoming to him here either. They were very amicable to him in their correction and even more-so after everyone came to the same understanding because the "one mind" was restored among brethren.

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. - Philippians 2:1-2

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. - 1 Corinthians 1:10

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Chris' introduction

« on: October 29, 2022, 04:04:21 PM »

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the introduction.

I'm really not sure where to start, but I was born into a Christian family, and even though I was told I was saved at a young age and we had parts of the Autherised version (KJV) read to myself and my brother when we were children, I couldn't really point to a repentant point in my life until 2020 when I tried reaching out to an assistant pastor at a baptist church. I actually came across the CLE website after a google search looking up what a very anti-theistic work manager tried saying that the bible condoned and encouraged slavery (of course that's not true, he was probably reading "The Message" version or some other horrendous attempt at a translation). At that meeting with the assistant pastor I did feel a lot of grief, sorrow and pain over the fact I had broken all of God's laws and at this point I did ask Jesus Christ to come into my life and save me by the power of his shed blood and the power of God.

Out of curiosity, was it something that you and the pastor were discussing that caused you to come to repentance of your sins? Or was it just something that came up in your own thoughts as the meeting was happening? And also, since you said you grew up in a Christian family, does that mean they have come to repentance as well? Or do they just claim to be Christians? I understand if you're not sure at this point (sometimes it can take a little time to discern), but I was just wondering since you mentioned that.

I didn't get what had really happened though until I heard Chris' teachings on repentance and even though I'd never really been a church goer and even felt uncomfortable in a good number of church buildings I'd tried attending, I realised how few people actually teach what is actually involved in the conversion process and someone actually being born again. Too many teach that it's enough to believe, but what does belief matter if you don't understand the gravity of sin, the breaking of God's laws and what judgement awaits the lost...and what Jesus Christ actually went through to save us.

I can definitely relate--I didn't know what happened to me either on the day I was saved till I read Chris' teaching on repentance, but it made much more sense after that. And it truly doesn't make sense to just believe in Christ if you don't even have a full understanding of why you need to have that faith to begin with. Which is why the Law is the schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, since we can then understand our wickedness and are broken down in sorrow over it. Once you understand repentance it makes so many other doctrines about salvation much more clear, like the doctrine of false converts, true faith vs fake faith, and how works factor into a Christian's life after salvation. It's quite interesting how many people claim to be Christians but they unknowingly have their faith in their own works and a fake faith in Christ, or even faith in a false Christ.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. - Galatians 3:24

This feels a little weird posting this online, because I know that at the end of the day, no one on the forum knows me, and you have every right to be wary of new-comers, to say nothing of some of the other people who have been trying to spread weird ideas and doctrines on said forum...but from everything I've seen, I'm more likely to find down to earth and intelligent conversation on doctrine and other subjects here, more than anywhere else I've seen.

Yep, the only reason why most people do not end up getting a welcome with open arms when they join is because they are coming in with pretense, false doctrine, or some other clear issue that has to be addressed by someone here, and then they usually get defensive and don't accept the rebuke (because they are not coming in with that humility of repentance). But if someone comes in like you have, very reasonable with what sounds like a true testimony of repentance and faith then we don't have much reason to be very wary. Hopefully you enjoy it here and get fellowship if that's what you're looking for. 

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduction

« on: September 30, 2022, 07:15:24 AM »

Good morning Robert,

I am not sure what counts as the exact moment or even of 'being saved'

The moment of "being saved" is the moment someone is born again. Someone cannot be saved without having been born again by the Holy Spirit. See these verses:
 
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
- John 3:3-6

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the doctrine of being born again?

I am here to see what other have to say and I must admit I cannot buy the diatribe against Catholicism suggesting I can't get to Heaven or live Jesus as a Catholic.  Anyway.

So, is there any part of you that actually wants to discuss and reason out the scriptures about doctrinal matters and any disagreements we may have, or are you just here to conduct a "science experiment" about what Christians are going to say to you about your brief statement here? I could go into more detail even about what I already said above and say/ask more about other things, but if you aren't here to actually reason anything out and discuss things, then there's really no point for me to go into more detail. We aren't here just so that people can come and "see what happens" when they come on and knowingly (in their hearts) say something that is in disagreement to Christ's doctrines. We are here to preach the gospel and discuss doctrine with those who are willing to hear. If you've closed your ears and shut your eyes just because you know we don't believe in the false doctrines of Catholicism, then I'm sure you won't be willing to actually hear what else we might have to say, so that would be good for us to know beforehand.

Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
- Colossians 4:5

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
- Matthew 13:14-15

18

General Discussion / Re: Here is Practical Explanation about Next Life, Purpose of Human Life,

« on: September 05, 2022, 04:57:59 PM »

now whether im legit or not that any person can tell with little intelligence after reading my post that whether it is credible or not.

so i do not require any certificate from you after giving my intro. ( for i am not very important at all )

What you said does not have any credibility and it doesn’t even make sense, we don’t need any intelligence to see that. You are telling us to do chants and giving us steps to happiness and we aren’t interested in any of that. The point of life isn’t to find the right steps and the right “god” that makes you happy when you repeat a chant over and over.

The point of life according to the One True God (not your pagan false god), is to fear Him and keep His commandments.

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13‬

You follow a false god called Krishna and we do not, we follow Jesus Christ who is God Almighty. And according to that One True God, you are an idolator and you need to be sorrowful and ashamed for your sin against Him, otherwise you are going to spend eternity in hell after your death. You waste your life chanting your false god’s name just to be happy, but you’re going to be weeping in your own destruction if you don’t turn away from your idols toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:7

We aren’t interested in your false god, so if your goal is to convert us to your paganism then you’re wasting your time here. The One True God has converted us to Him already, and what God has already done, you aren't going to undo.

19

Wild Emails @ CLE / Re: Joins Our Church For Fellowship, Says Nothing, and Leaves

« on: August 29, 2022, 03:01:22 PM »

Yeah that's what I was thinking. He may have lied about the name Adam or Brian or even both names. I have no idea. But my suspicion is that it's at least the same person talking to us but we may not know what his real name is.

20

Wild Emails @ CLE / Re: Joins Our Church For Fellowship, Says Nothing, and Leaves

« on: August 29, 2022, 02:44:40 PM »

I am disappointed in the outcome of this situation, but not very surprised. I actually wondered if he was going to want to leave soon after he came on to the calls. I was one of the people who had red flags about Brian, and initially I wasn't sure if I could, in good conscience, give my "yes" vote for him to join the church. But after our meeting where we discussed the Geneva on the call and discussed Brian's posts a little bit, I believed it was right to be charitable and give him a chance. I was also pleased by his reply to me about my points on the Geneva arguments he made. I still do believe it was right to be charitable, despite the outcome. Because perhaps we needed this type of experience and God wanted to teach us something.

This email he sent is quite offensive, but not because of any "good correction" he believes he provided. It's offensive because he made so many assumptions about us but he didn't care enough to find out any actual reasons why things are done in a certain way, or ask any questions, or show any charity, patience, or benefit of the doubt toward us. He came to his conclusions after being on only about half of both of the meetings he was a part of. He was late to the first one, and on the next one I think he was also late and also left early, and couldn't even hear us for most of the second one anyway because of his technical problems. Yet he came on to write this email of "correction" bullet points based on his opinions about how the meetings should be done. This makes no sense, but it shows that he does not make judgments based on scripture and "logic", but on his own opinions based on very little observation. This is surprising and disappointing to me because he supposedly has so much experience as a Christian, yet he seems to make quite unrighteous judgments. This makes one wonder if that "experience" was truly of a born again Christian, and I personally have my doubts at this point but I'm unsure so I can't say one way or another. He might be a Christian, but he may have much more leaven in him over these years than he realized, even despite being part of several groups and having been in an elder position.

Brian says:
I also share my points as someone who has served in an elder-type of role and has been blessed to be part of small meetings of believers for years, where I seen different styles in various different nations and cultures like in Africa and Latin America.
I found this interesting that he claims he's been in these different groups with "different styles" and he is willing to accept those, but he doesn't consider the fact that as a church that primarily functions online, we may simply have a "different style" that allows us to function as a body of believers that differs from in person groups in certain ways. If he doesn't prefer it, then that's fine, but just because it is not what he personally likes, that doesn't mean that we are doing something wrong or unbiblical. God has blessed this group in many ways and we have seen many amazing things God has done for us despite being far from each other.

We know the 1st century church met face-to-face when possible, And it is already quite a challenge or question if a group can really act as a healthy body ‘virtually.’
Okay... so why did he join then? If he has doubts of whether a virtual church group can even be a healthy body of believers... then why did he want to be part of it?

Even if there was face-to-face, the lack of overall interaction and the frequent long gaps of silence seem very odd.
Yet, if Brian cares so much about that and sees us as brethren, then why didn't he say anything to change that silence during the call? For someone who emphasizes "face-to-face" so much, it's quite odd that he didn't even use his voice to speak up. And beyond that, that he wasn't even willing to use his voice to reason with us on the calls about his concerns but only emailed Chris directly instead and fled away. It seemed like Brian simply wanted to get out of our group what he wanted, so when we didn't fit his personal preferences, he left. That doesn't show a true desire for fellowship, and it doesn't show charity.

One logical conclusion is it appears that at least some members, especially women, may not feel comfortable challenging Christopher and / or the status quo, partly because of Christopher’s style.
Another assumption. It's funny to me how people on the outside imagine Chris' interaction with the rest of the group. It's like he thinks we're all metaphorically staring at Chris like wide-eyed robots, following his every word constantly without question and without our own individual faith in God and our own personal convictions. And they think Chris must be constantly rebuking us mercilessly without any gentleness so that we're all afraid to say anything him. It's so silly and absurd. They don't see how Chris (within reason) tries to avoid harsh rebuke almost entirely within the church out of charity toward the newer members and how much liberty (with charity) is emphasized within our own homes. They don't see the times where we're laughing and having a good time as brethren together (albeit on a Skype audio call). It's so sad how they simply do not understand. I personally have learned a lot from the directness that Chris and others here have shown because it's not common at all in our culture and I get tired of the niceties sometimes. Directness is not something I have witnessed much in my life and it's extremely refreshing to me compared to all the flattery and nonsense that is so common in the world. Especially in false churches. So I don't mind that "style" as a woman in the group, and I actually enjoy it.

In both calls, even the Monday prayer call, we were on quite a bit and we didn’t hear any focus on the bible, prayer, or encouraging each other.
He's kidding here, right? He literally could not hear us for a huge chunk of time on Thursday and he missed the entire prayer portion on Monday that usually goes about 20 minutes into the meeting. This is just absurd. And he was there on Monday when the second part was focused on going through Proverbs 13. Sigh. 

4) Consider spending much less time on politics.  And be careful not to proudly assume that your views represent God’s, when it comes to politics with nuance or gray areas.
What bothers me here, is that it Brian makes a big deal about undue focus on politics, yet one his reasons for choosing his "source of truth," specifically, his preferred bible translation, is because of his "respect" for the American founding fathers. Here is a quote from that post: "As one other preview of a reason for preferring Geneva, and on a more positive note, I greatly admire a lot of this nation's forefathers. Many of them preferred the Geneva over the KJV. So that is one interesting thing to read about.  I admire people who obeyed God in seeking justice and trying to escape a politician, sometimes risking their lives." So some of the forefathers liked the Geneva, and Brian likes the forefathers, therefore that supposedly gives him a reason to prefer Geneva as a source of truth (i.e. his reasons were not about doctrine). Clearly, this is another example of Brian making spiritual judgments based on his personal opinions, just like what he did throughout this email to Chris. So yeah, this is a consistent pattern in Brian's behavior which is quite alarming considering the fact that he claims to have been saved for probably longer than most, if not all of us here.

Another quote from his reply to me about the Geneva version: "Ironically, one of my first discussions here has been about how important the source of Truth is." Looking back on this now, I agree with him that it was ironic but that's because he chooses his source of truth by his personal opinions. And likewise, his opinions and preferences guide his other judgments, rather than that "source of truth" which is scripture. What's the point of even having a preferred bible version if you're not going to use the sound reason, and doctrines within it to make your judgments, but rather go by your own opinions? And what's the point if you're going to ignore the commands in it, namely of Matthew 18 about hearing the church on these matters?

I was wary of Brian at first, but because of the encouragement from Chris to be charitable (see Brian, Chris does in fact encourage us, and in this case Chris was the one who was being less harsh), and because of Brian's seemingly humble appearance and experience, I was softened and open to him joining. I even was hopeful that things could go well before he joined in with us. Clearly it did not. But I am somewhat relieved because it happened sooner rather than later. I hope Brian would be pleased to know that his email with all his assumptions and unrighteous judgments gave the church so much to talk about yesterday that I don't think there were many silences at all and the discussion went on longer than it usually does. But still no video call necessary--the Holy Spirit blessed us with understanding and discernment to discuss these things, so I'm glad for that. Each time someone does these things to us, it actually brings us closer together in fellowship, so that's something interesting to note for Brian.

And about the email correspondence from March, I kinda doubt it's his son. I think it's Brian. That's just my opinion, but I know one thing you mentioned Chris was his use of the word "cool" and that made you think it sounded like a younger man. To me that seems like the only possible indicator, but the rest of it doesn't sound much at all like a typical guy in his 20's (because of the topics he's addressing like the IRS, and also his speech), unless he and his dad just talk a lot alike. One specific thing that makes me believe it is Brian, is this part: "God has opened some interesting doors for us the past couple years.  For example, we've become friends with a leading Christian constitutional lawyer (yes, ha, a scribe) who does a humorous yet very unique and insightful daily blog at coffeeandcovid.com.  I never thought I'd compliment a lawyer!" Brian in one of his posts here also mentioned this same blog, and he mentioned being friends with the lawyer here:"I just want to let you know, if you don't, about Jeff Childers' substack "CoffeeandCovid", because Jeff has been doing a wonderful job seeking justice in many areas, including hospitals. He defeated the entire city of Gainesville, FL last year on this topic, and was the first attorney in the nation to do so. He's a real believer, and I've met him in person and have regular correspondence." Unless he and his (20's) son are both close friends with this guy (who is a 70 year old lawyer that writes about covid a bunch), I don't think it's the son. I don't know though. This is just some of my own input on it, and I'm curious to know the answers but I kinda doubt we'll get them from him.