CLE Forum
CLE Website and Ministry => Wild Emails @ CLE => Topic started by: creationliberty on January 19, 2019, 07:16:29 PM
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BOB FROM PENNSYLVANIA
I filled Articles of Corporation paperers here in Pennsylvania as a non profit ministry. is this different then a church? Am I required to have 50 (1) C (3) status ? My ministry will be online and speaking engagements. Thanks, Bob Segalla
I don't know how to answer, you haven't given me any details about what it is you do or teach.
Hi Chris, thanks for getting back to me. I am an ordained minister I preach the gospel, that you must be born a gain and baptized in the name of Jesus. Become a disciple by renewing your mind through the study and meditation of the Holy Scriptures. I was a pastor at several different churches over the last 35 years. God has put a desire in my heart to start a ministry where I use music that I write that is worship music and music that preaches the word of God as well as teach and preach God's word. I filed articles for a non profit ministry here in the state of Pennsylvania. My question is do I need to have a 501 c 3 to do this type of ministry since I am not a church. Can you give receipts to people for their financial support without it? How do you handle financial support for Creation Liberty Ministries since your not a church?
What's fascinating to me is that you claim to preach the Gospel, and have done so for 35 years, and yet, you think that preaching the Gospel of Christ is somehow disconnected from His church. If you do anything on behalf of the Lord Jesus Christ, then 501c3 ought to have been offensive to you 35 years ago. The reason I'm saying that is because your questions don't make sense from someone who claims to be of Christ, especially one who claims to have taught Scripture for 35 years. If you teach the Bible, then you ought to know it.
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
-Mat 13:23
False Converts vs Eternal Security (http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/falseconverts.php)
I see a lot of traditions of men in your response (Col 2:8 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Colossians-2-8/)), and perhaps you don't see it yourself. For example, I can tell from your questions that you think the church is a building, which is not what Scripture teaches (1Co 6:19 (https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Corinthians-6-19/)); that's why you say that "Creation Liberty 'Ministries' [is] not a church." This not only means you know nothing about us, nor what I do or teach, but it also means you have a lot of basic principles to learn about Scripture before you even get to the topic of 501c3. Again, if you actually read my teaching, 501c3 is not the source of the problem; 501c3 is only a symptom of the underlying problem. (i.e. You're trying to address the symptom instead of the cause.)
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-Heb 5:14
You're asking about "giving people receipts" and "handling financial support" which means you're thinking solely about the money in this situation. You ought to be ashamed.
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
-2Pe 2:3
Furthermore, all you're trying to do is do everything the 501c3 leavened church buildings are doing, but without getting the contract, and the reason you're doing that is because you likely didn't read the entire book I wrote, and you definitely didn't understand it; namely, you think if you get rid of the contract, you'll be right with Jesus, but I can see leaven in you just from what you wrote to me in your letter.
If you want to learn the principles of Christ, I would be more than willing to help teach you that, but in my experience in dealing with so-called "pastors" with decades of experience, I'll probably never hear from you again, because the truth is offensive to such men. Most likely, in this situation, the article you really need to read from our ministry is this one:
Is Repentance Part of Salvation? (http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/repent.php)
That will be far more important because whereas I'm sure you think you've got tons of knowledge and experience, I can tell from your letter that you have very little understanding of Scripture. I have far more I would like to recommend you read or listen to, but if you can't understand that teaching on repentance, then you're not going to understand any of the others, and you especially won't understand you're leavened, and that getting rid of a 501c3 contract will not clean out your heart.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
-Mat 23:26
NOTE: He never responded.
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Chris, you spoke very well to him.
(I learn so much from you and everyone here.)
My eyes have been opened to what is really going on out there...
it is disheartening to know there are thousands of so-called "pastors" out there, who have not repented,
and who are not true born-again believers and Christians.
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So he wanted to start a church where you sing the gospel rather then just preach it?
I am trying to picture Chris doing his weekly teaching in song and how long before everyone will start to get annoyed.
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Simply put, these so-called pastors are in the business of business. 🤑 Then they call it The Church of Jesus Christ.
If this guy, after 35 years, hasn't figured out that baptism is not part of the Gospel then I don't think there is much hope for him.
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Kenneth, what do you mean by baptism is not part of the Gospel?
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If you go by basic terminology, baptism is part of the Gospel because the word 'Gospel' means doctrine. However, Kenneth specializes in preaches to lost souls on the street, and in that sense, baptism is something that happens after the "Gospel" has been presented and a conversion takes place, or in other words, you don't have to be baptized to be saved, but baptism is something Christians are instructed to do once they repent and believe. (Not to speak for him.)
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Understood, thank you Chris.
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Are there any NON 501c3 houses/churches in Ohio or Florida?
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Tina, first of all, you need to introduce yourself before you start posting. Please read that rule here:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=20.0
Second, if you read the article on 501(c)(3), you would know that Chris is just one person who has done his research on the topic. He has no knowledge nor way of finding out where non-incorporated churches are. That is something you will have to do on your own, or just become a part of the community here. NONE of us knows where there are unleavened church buildings in our areas, which is one of the main reasons for our being here.
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What I meant was that baptism isn't part of salvation.
I'm not sure if that really was relevant to that email or not.
There were so many things wrong with that guys "ministry" and what he was saying he that email that I suppose I got mixed up on which issue I was trying to address.
Also, I've heard some Christians say that if you aren't specifically baptized "in Jesus name" then you aren't saved and you must be baptized again properly in order to obtain salvation.
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There is a list of non 501 c 3 churches on this website
http://www.independencebaptist.com/churches.html
Even if a church is not 501 c 3 , there can still be a bunch of things wrong with it. Sound doctrine is hard to find. I do not know whether it is a good list as I have never investigated the churches that are on there, but maybe it can help.
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Let me clarify that I already answered the matter here:
http://creationliberty.com/faq.php#findchurch (http://creationliberty.com/faq.php#findchurch)
I don't think Masha is considering what she's saying and doing; she is not considering that Tina is not considering that 501c3 is not the source of the problem. Finding a "non-501c3" church building will not solve the problem. Tina hasn't even given us an introduction post yet, so we don't even know who we're talking with.
Providing a list from a website is actually not good in the first place; that's why I've never done it. Just going to the first two people on the list and researching them very quickly, the first guy hasn't had a teaching online since 2010, and he doesn't have any other information about where he is or what he's doing; in fact, you can't even hear any of his teachings because he closed his sermon audio account. The second guy implies that he thinks the USA is the "New Jerusalem," and their church website is literally one page that tells you almost nothing about what they really believe. Masha, knowing nothing at all about Tina's beliefs, why would you even send her that list? You obviously didn't take the time to research anything.
I can almost guarantee what you did was see Tina say, "I want a list" you Google searched for a list, found a list, and posted a list, without first thinking about Tina, and this is why I think Masha and I conflict with one another so much on this forum. Do you honestly believe that we all do not have the capability of google-searching a list? Do you think that I, and others here, have not found such lists before? Do you honestly believe THAT is the reason I (and others here) have never posted any links to sites that have them? There are organizations I know of, who have existed for decades, that are non-501c3 groups, and I (and others here) do not post them ON PURPOSE because we are trying to protect and educate Christians from leaven; however, you are just sending them straight to it without caring at all. (And don't try to excuse yourself and say that you actually did care about Tina when you made that post, because if you cared, you would have taken the time to look into these things first and think about the matter.)
Let me clarify that posting that link for that website is not only NOT helping, but you're actually making the problem worse. Instead of choosing to sit down with Tina and help her understand the source of the problem, you just posted the first thing off the top of your head, and if you wonder why you and I have had so many arguments, and why you're not getting the "edification" you want (which you previously complained about in another thread (http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=480.msg3557#msg3557)), this is one of many examples to show you why that is; you simply post quick responses (a lot of which are almost identical to each other) without taking the time to consider what you're saying and doing.
I simply pray that Tina would first educate herself on God's Word and understand the source of the problem (i.e. sin), growing her discernment, before she runs off into leavened church buildings.
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I didn't even go to that website Masha posted; I just looked at the name. Independence Baptist. Independent Baptist churches are no less corrupt than any other organised church buildings. It's a denomination which, as Chris has pointed out before, is NOT Biblical.
Chris, I think that teaching you said you were going to do on denominations is sorely needed, and I'm looking forward to reading it.
All that being said, I found it ironic that Chris has used the example of 'Pastor Bob' to represent all pastors in his teachings on Idolatry, Respecting Persons, and the use of titles in the church and this guy who wrote the email just happens to be a pastor named Bob.
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[NOTE from ADMIN: This thread was merged because Jephte posted on a completely different thread apart from this one; that's why some of the posts mentioning Carol may not make sense.]
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Chris don't be so harsh on Masha please consider that she has a lot that she's going through right now, as a man I love what you're doing but be gentle sometimes. you don't have to agree with me, just giving you my 2 cents. ;)
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Jephte, I don't think this is the thread you meant to post that on. I know which thread you're referring to, though, and Chris was totally justified in what he said. 'Going through a lot' is no excuse for poor judgement in making posts here.
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agree but you have to consider that she's the weaker vessel. please correct me if i'm wrong!!
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Chris don't be so harsh on Masha please consider that she has a lot that she's going through right now, as a man I love what you're doing but be gentle sometimes. you don't have to agree with me, just giving you my 2 cents. ;)
Carol is asking questions; Masha has nothing to do with this thread. Would please have some consideration for Carol? I can't even figure out how you could come to a completely different thread and make slap-n-run comments on what seems to be the topic of some other discussion. Please consider what you're doing before you make posts Jephte; you've been with us long enough to know better than that.
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sorry Chris it was hard for me the original thread that's why i posted it on this one because they both were about 501c3. sorry again i should done better :-[
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you can always take it and put it on the right tread.
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Please explain to us how we are supposed to put it on the "right thread" when we have no idea what thread you're referring to.
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This is where the original post Jephte is referring to appeared:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=501.msg3792#msg3792
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Jephte is the one who needs to say that. I'm not moving anything until he confirms it. You might have some indication that's what he's referring to, but until he points it out, it's nothing more than an assumption. I have half a mind to delete his comments for Carol's sake.
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yes it is Chris.
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[NOTE from ADMIN: This is where the thread was moved to this one.]
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Now, if Jephte wants to express himself plainly, instead of using vague, slap-n-run comments in a different thread, then please do so now. I'll warn you, BE SPECIFIC. Do not continue in your vague, murmuring accusations; quote portions of what people have said here, and give details about your complaints. If you don't want to do that, then you need to hold your peace and move on.
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Chris I wanna let you know that you great father figure. I love you ;) ;) :) :)
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I'm putting a temporary mute on your account. It should wear off in a few days. Until then, you should learn a few things from Ruth here on our forum:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=484.0 (http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=484.0)
Please stop wasting everyone's time; we have work to do. If anyone has a problem with anything I said to Masha, I'm more than willing to discuss it with someone who doesn't want to sit around and act like a fool over matters that he should be taking seriously.
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Jephte, the rules of conduct here on the forum are the same for everyone. Asking to treat someone differently because of their circumstances is a form of respecting persons. Maybe you should check out that teaching again:
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/respect.php
While you're at it, you might want to check out the one on rebuke, too, if you haven't read it yet:
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/rebuke.php
You were rebuked for a specific reason, but instead of acknowledging that and showing repentance, you made excuses and then turned around and tried to flatter Chris! You should know by now that that kind of behaviour is unacceptable here and will not be tolerated. I don't know if that was the specific reason Chris muted you for a while or not, but it's certainly something I noticed.
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That wasn't flattery, that was sarcasm in which he was "jesting" concerning a matter of sin (either on his part or on mine depending on the final judgment of the matter), but he didn't bother to present his accusation clearly where everyone could see it because he was being a coward. I want to be corrected if need be, but that type "jesting" communication when it comes to sin doesn't belong in the church.
Jephte has been well known to only show up here once in a blue moon (i.e. rarely) and make useless or vague comments to random subjects out of nowhere. He's not really been involved in fellowship much with us anyway, so if he keeps up that type of an attitude, I have no problem showing him the door. I just find it absolutely ridiculous that I have to deal with this nonsensical garbage when I'm trying to get teachings online, and others on this forum (like Laura and Ruth just recently) are making posts that have a lot of value to the edification of the church, and they get ignored because cowardly, lazy hypocrites like Jephte. (I can see it in him because I have a lot of past experience in being a cowardly, lazy, hypocrite; so he's not going to hide it from me.)
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Dear Chris, You are right that I sometimes take little time to think about what I post. I gladly take your correction on that. I apologise for doing that, and I will try to contemplate and think more thoroughly before I post. I am sorry if it has harmed anyone.
In your post you make quite a few assumptions/accusations that I believe I should address. Please always remember that we have never been in the same room together, and you cannot by far say that you actually know me, nor that you know my motivations, thoughts, feelings, contemplation, convictions, understanding unless I specifically share them with you.
You wrote:
I can almost guarantee what you did was see Tina say, "I want a list" you Google searched for a list, found a list, and posted a list, without first thinking about Tina, and this is why I think Masha and I conflict with one another so much on this forum.
I did not respond to Tina’s question about a list, but to what Jeanne wrote:
Tina, first of all, you need to introduce yourself before you start posting. Please read that rule here:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=20.0
Second, if you read the article on 501(c)(3), you would know that Chris is just one person who has done his research on the topic. He has no knowledge nor way of finding out where non-incorporated churches are. That is something you will have to do on your own, or just become a part of the community here. NONE of us knows where there are unleavened church buildings in our areas, which is one of the main reasons for our being here.
She says you have no knowledge nor any way to find out. That is why I thought it could be helpful to post the list.
I did not google search the list. I receive an email update from this church and the list is a link underneath the message.
. Masha, knowing nothing at all about Tinas beliefs, why would you even send her that list? You obviously didn't take the time to research anything.
I stated clearly that I did not do any research, I never claimed to endorse these churches. The website itself also clearly warns about the churches listed, with a very clear defined disclaimer:
DISCLAIMER: We do not endorse the Churches listed on this page or expect them to be in agreement with ours in all points of doctrine. Known differences from our Church will be briefly noted. The only requirements to be included are:
(1) That their sole authority for faith and practice is the KJV Bible; (2) That they are under the sole headship of the Lord Jesus Christ (not incorporated or 501c3 tax exempt);. and (3) That they hold to historic Baptist doctrine. We welcome your recommendation of any Churches that would qualify to be added.
Do you honestly believe that we all do not have the capability of google-searching a list? Do you think that I, and others here, have not found such lists before? Do you honestly believe THAT is the reason I (and others here) have never posted any links to sites that have them?
I do not think that.
Instead of choosing to sit down with Tina and help her understand the source of the problem, you just posted the first thing off the top of your head, and if you wonder why you and I have had so many arguments, and why you're not getting the "edification" you want (which you previously complained about in another thread), this is one of many examples to show you why that is; you simply post quick responses (a lot of which are almost identical to each other) without taking the time to consider what you're saying and doing.
You are right I could have better sit down with Tina, but you know that I cannot possibly do that. As far as I have understood none of you have sat down with Tina. (Consider matthew 7)
Bringing up the rebuke/edify post… to what purpose?
You do not specify your statement: ), this is one of many examples.
I will gladly receive knowledge of all the many examples.
As said before you are right I sometimes post quick responses, and I should take more time to consider what I say or do. I apologise for doing so, and I will do my best to better myself. I hope you will all have patience with me.
Nevertheless Chris, it seems your criticism and dislike of me go beyond this. You apparently do not like me, and that is fine. I am not alive so that I can please you.
I have a clear conscience, I am well able to take correction when it is Biblical, grounded and founded. Your personal opinion about me is very limited and therefore not very valuable.
If indeed you have an accusation of me being in error or doing something harmful to anyone here, teaching false doctrine, lie, break any forum-rule or have trespassed in any way, you may obey God and handle that in a Biblical manner:
Matthew 18 15, Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16, But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17, And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
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Dear Chris, You are right that I sometimes take little time to think about what I post. I gladly take your correction on that. I apologise for doing that, and I will try to contemplate and think more thoroughly before I post. I am sorry if it has harmed anyone.
In your post you make quite a few assumptions/accusations that I believe I should address. Please always remember that we have never been in the same room together, and you cannot by far say that you actually know me, nor that you know my motivations, thoughts, feelings, contemplation, convictions, understanding unless I specifically share them with you.
Interesting that we've never been in the same room with Paul either, but we tend to thoroughly and intimately study what he wrote in the New Testament. I don't know about any of you, but I have ever experienced a face-to-face sit down conversation with Jesus, but I know quite a bit about Him, and quite intimately.
This "you can't know my heart" garbage is exactly the same thing I hear out of mouths of the new-age churchgoers.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
-Mat 12:37
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18
Masha, for you to sit here and act like no one can know you by what you say; you are too experienced as a Christian to not understand this by now. Do you listen to any of the teachings that I do, or did you stop listening some time ago? Because I've brought up those Scriptures many times in a wide variety of teachings. We can know your heart by your words, so unless you believe Christ was lying about that, don't try to hide it.
You wrote:
I can almost guarantee what you did was see Tina say, "I want a list" you Google searched for a list, found a list, and posted a list, without first thinking about Tina, and this is why I think Masha and I conflict with one another so much on this forum.
I did not respond to Tina's question about a list, but to what Jeanne wrote:
Tina, first of all, you need to introduce yourself before you start posting. Please read that rule here:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=20.0
Second, if you read the article on 501(c)(3), you would know that Chris is just one person who has done his research on the topic. He has no knowledge nor way of finding out where non-incorporated churches are. That is something you will have to do on your own, or just become a part of the community here. NONE of us knows where there are unleavened church buildings in our areas, which is one of the main reasons for our being here.
She says you have no knowledge nor any way to find out. That is why I thought it could be helpful to post the list.
So, what I would ask you to do is read what Jeanne wrote very carefully. She went on to say that none of us knows where there are UNLEAVENED church buildings in our areas. Is that website link a list of UNLEAVENED churches, or is it a list of non-501c3 churches?
If you'll also take a moment to look, Tina has ONE post on her account. That's it. She didn't even introduce herself. How do you know that she didn't take your list, ignore everything we've tried to explain to her, and run with it? I don't believe she did, but you need to understand these things beforehand. It is hypocritical for you to say how much I don't know about you (even though you and I have had many discussions in the past), when you don't know Tina's motivations, thoughts, feelings, contemplation, convictions, and understanding, so don't put those requirements and responsibilities on everyone else when you haven't done it either. (i.e. Tina didn't say enough to discern much from, other than the fact that she doesn't understand leaven.)
I did not google search the list. I receive an email update from this church and the list is a link underneath the message.
It's as good as if you did, because you obviously didn't know anything about what you sent her. You just sent it. That was obvious. I don't need prior knowledge of your "motivations" or "feelings" to know that fact. Do you know why I said "I can ALMOST guarantee" instead of using the words "definitely guarantee?" Because I don't know where exactly you got it from, but I did know that you didn't bother to look into anything that was on it, nor did you ask anyone here to help you with it if you needed help, which (if I may be so bold as to speak on everyone else's behalf) we would have been more than willing to do for you if you requested it. Because I discerned that information, I knew it was no better than you doing a google search and pulling up the first thing you found without consideration; so let's not try to hide that fact by covering it up with a "but-it-came-from-a-newsletter" speech.
. Masha, knowing nothing at all about Tinas beliefs, why would you even send her that list? You obviously didn't take the time to research anything.
I stated clearly that I did not do any research, I never claimed to endorse these churches. The website itself also clearly warns about the churches listed, with a very clear defined disclaimer:
DISCLAIMER: We do not endorse the Churches listed on this page or expect them to be in agreement with ours in all points of doctrine. Known differences from our Church will be briefly noted. The only requirements to be included are:
(1) That their sole authority for faith and practice is the KJV Bible; (2) That they are under the sole headship of the Lord Jesus Christ (not incorporated or 501c3 tax exempt);. and (3) That they hold to historic Baptist doctrine. We welcome your recommendation of any Churches that would qualify to be added.
And that does not mean that those churches are unleavened; INCLUDING Sam Adam's "Independent Baptist".com. Did you know he teaches that 'repent' means "to turn from sin?" The fact is that you have no concern for someone who might potentially be a new Christian to send her straight into leaven without consideration. That's the point of what I said to you.
(As a side note, you'll notice that they don't welcome recommendations of any churches that would qualify to be removed; that's because, likely, the website's church is also leavened. They don't care about doctrine, they only care about the surface problems; namely, whether or not they have a 501c3 contract, or if they share the same leavened denomination.)
What's amazing about the website, and about you, is that neither of you seem to know what the word 'endorse' means:
endorse (v): to approve, support, or sustain
The very fact that you are linking people to these websites and ministers is "support." I've talked about this many times in my teachings, where people on facebook have all these wicked movies, music, TV shows, and other garbage that has all this worldly, sinful stuff on it, but then say, "I'm not endorsing them;" YES THEY ARE! That's the definition of endorsement because when someone goes to a website link, finds a leavened church, and joins it, they got that FROM YOU! You endorsed this by sharing it, and then claimed you were not endorsing it. I'm not saying I've never done that same thing by accident; maybe I've done it before on this forum, but I'm not going to sit here and deny it if I'm called out on it.
Do you honestly believe that we all do not have the capability of google-searching a list? Do you think that I, and others here, have not found such lists before? Do you honestly believe THAT is the reason I (and others here) have never posted any links to sites that have them?
I do not think that.
Instead of choosing to sit down with Tina and help her understand the source of the problem, you just posted the first thing off the top of your head, and if you wonder why you and I have had so many arguments, and why you're not getting the "edification" you want (which you previously complained about in another thread), this is one of many examples to show you why that is; you simply post quick responses (a lot of which are almost identical to each other) without taking the time to consider what you're saying and doing.
You are right I could have better sit down with Tina, but you know that I cannot possibly do that. As far as I have understood none of you have sat down with Tina. (Consider matthew 7)
"Sit down" is a figurative term there; I apologize if it seemed to be literal. However, please stop trying to dodge the point. We did attempt to explain to her the foundational problem. And don't try this back-handed slap of "consider Matthew 7," which anyone would take to mean that you are implying (in cowardice murmuring, instead of stating directly) that I have a beam through my eye because I dared to rebuke you; that's complete childishness Masha.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
-1Co 14:20
Bringing up the rebuke/edify post... to what purpose?
Go research the context of your own words. I'm not going to (literally) sit here and waste my entire day re-explaining things to you that were already discussed.
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=480.msg3557#msg3557 (http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=480.msg3557#msg3557)
You do not specify your statement: ), this is one of many examples.
I will gladly receive knowledge of all the many examples.
No, you won't. You've rejected them many times, and remained in denial. The only reason I don't want to go pull all that back up is because I have to go back over years worth of emails and posts to search for information to put out here (which has already been done for you before (http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=257.0), but you conveniently forget these things), and that will soak up my entire day which I planned on using for study and writing because I've got a lot to get done. (i.e. I've already spent 2 hours this morning answering emails and forum posts like this.)
As said before you are right I sometimes post quick responses, and I should take more time to consider what I say or do. I apologise for doing so, and I will do my best to better myself. I hope you will all have patience with me.
If you understood that, then then why are you fighting this? There was no need for you to try and make all these excuses.
Nevertheless Chris, it seems your criticism and dislike of me go beyond this. You apparently do not like me, and that is fine. I am not alive so that I can please you.
I have a clear conscience, I am well able to take correction when it is Biblical, grounded and founded. Your personal opinion about me is very limited and therefore not very valuable.
I (literally) do not care whether or not you think my opinions are valuable. I (literally) do not care if you think my rebuke was not Biblically grounded. I also don't care how nice you want to appear to be on the outside. Here's what I care about: Young Christians who are seeking understanding, and through your selfishness, you are leading them astray. I've met many people who have been in denial about a number of subjects, and of all those people, they are almost impossible to talk to because there is an excuse for everything. I'm simply looking to guard new Christians against your carelessness, which, in your somewhat veteran status as a Christian, you ought to know better. (i.e. If someone else new had done this, I would have had more patience and responded differently.) I just hope that, in the process, others might learn more about the foundational matters, and not be led astray because you were thinking of yourself first and not them.
If indeed you have an accusation of me being in error or doing something harmful to anyone here, teaching false doctrine, lie, break any forum-rule or have trespassed in any way, you may obey God and handle that in a Biblical manner:
Matthew 18 15, Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16, But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17, And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Yeah, it's very simple:
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
-Gal 5:9
Do you require that we explain to you what leaven is? If yes, let someone know. If not, do you care at all whether there is leaven among us?
I would say that's the first problem. The second one would be this:
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
-Philippians 2:1-4
If we are to have comfort in love as a whole, and have fellowship in the Spirit, we need to be of like mind, and look to the things of one another. Not thinking of ourselves first, but of others first. Granted, I've got a lot of improvement to do on that matter, so I'll give that disclaimer before I continue.
In the beginning, when you first started to contact me and/or us as a church, I did my best to be kind and inviting, and you even joined our church for a short time and talked with us over Skype, but very quickly, you went from trying to understand, to trying to have a excuse for things, and you departed from our church, but then stuck around on the forum for some reason. It did not take long, and from that early time, you have continued a pattern of selfishness in your words that, likely, few Christians here have discerned because they are blinded by outward niceties. It went from me viewing you as a peacemaker, to discovering a pattern of selfishness and denial.
In this particular instance (in this thread), we were trying to look on the things of Tina, but the reason you posted that link was for selfish reasons. You were trying to be helpful, right? Being helpful makes you feel good about yourself, and if you can do that in a speedy, 20-second post, it's like instant gratification. You don't have to do any work for it, and it makes you look good on the outside. There are people out there, and I believe you are one of them, who have a desire to be helpful out of a selfishness to feel better about themselves rather than a willingness to sacrifice their time and energy for someone else. I've been huge hypocrite on that point because I've been guilty of that very same thing (i.e. doing what I want to do for others instead of making the sacrifice to do what needs to be done), so I know how to recognize it in other people when I see it.
I am firm with you because I've seen this pattern, and I have to continually rebuke it, which causes me to lose patience. Most people who are like that typically end up departing from this forum after a short time (or we have to kick them out). You seemed to be repentant of a number of things, which is why no one has objected to you staying. However, the problem I have is that each instance of contention is only addressing the surface symptoms, and not the underlying problem, namely, selfishness and denial of the truth. Until those underlying problems are fixed, these controversies will keep happening, and you will never clearly see WHY it keeps happening.
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There are things in your reply I believe I should seriously think and contemplate on, because indeed I might learn from them. Thank you for your time and effort to reply.
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This is already the second time Masha is endorsing Baptists. Most of the teachings of CLE warn against leavened church buildings (flee from idolatry). I don't see the point in getting involved in it anyway, and trying to justify that choice on this forum.
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=232.msg1770#msg1770
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Wow Yeb, that was a sharp catch; I didn't notice that. Maybe Jeanne was right about her suggestion; she was saying I really should do a teaching on denominations, which is something I have on my list of things to do. Perhaps I should prioritize that when I'm done with my current projects.
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Denominations is one of the biggest problems I come across when trying to talk to people about Christ. I am at the stage of setting up a new bunch of laptops to give out to at risk youths and a teaching about denominations to go on to those would be very good. I need to find a way they don't look at the folder of the CLE Christian material and immediately delete it as junk and a title denouncing denominations might be a thing that catches their eye.
I was explaining to a fairly new lady in the staff room yesterday the difference between what people perceive as "the church" versus the way God's church is really structured and the way it operates. I have a graphic example here at work because the staff room is on the 7th floor and looking directly outside is a big stone building with a very tall steeple and crosses all over the place. (I'm surprised it hasn't toppled over in some of the earthquakes). The lady I was talking to is really quite open and listens to what I have to say so she is quite good to talk to.
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That wasn't flattery, that was sarcasm in which he was "jesting" concerning a matter of sin (either on his part or on mine depending on the final judgment of the matter), but he didn't bother to present his accusation clearly where everyone could see it because he was being a coward. I want to be corrected if need be, but that type "jesting" communication when it comes to sin doesn't belong in the church.
Jephte has been well known to only show up here once in a blue moon (i.e. rarely) and make useless or vague comments to random subjects out of nowhere. He's not really been involved in fellowship much with us anyway, so if he keeps up that type of an attitude, I have no problem showing him the door. I just find it absolutely ridiculous that I have to deal with this nonsensical garbage when I'm trying to get teachings online, and others on this forum (like Laura and Ruth just recently) are making posts that have a lot of value to the edification of the church, and they get ignored because cowardly, lazy hypocrites like Jephte. (I can see it in him because I have a lot of past experience in being a cowardly, lazy, hypocrite; so he's not going to hide it from me.)
Chris I did not say you a father figure because I was sarcastic nor am I a hypocrite. I compliment you because you were firm on me,no matter how I felt about Masha you did stick to your guns no matter what I said, and I appreciate that. I have a father that is abusive to me but not loving and firm with me like you are with all of us. The reason you guys may see me responding so late is because I was at the psychiatric hospital and I just come back today. I also would like all of you to know that I'm not lazy I have a mental illness that keeps me from having good organizing thoughts, and I'm living with people who is not supportive of me. they want everything to be their own way. So sorry guys if i'm not so active on here.
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Chris I did not say you a father figure because I was sarcastic nor am I a hypocrite. I compliment you because you were firm on me,no matter how I felt about Masha you did stick to your guns no matter what I said, and I appreciate that. I have a father that is abusive to me but not loving and firm with me like you are with all of us. The reason you guys may see me responding so late is because I was at the psychiatric hospital and I just come back today. I also would like all of you to know that I'm not lazy I have a mental illness that keeps me from having good organizing thoughts, and I'm living with people who is not supportive of me. they want everything to be their own way. So sorry guys if i'm not so active on here.
I'm not accepting that because you did make accusations in a vague way, but you did not answer for them. That was the whole point of what I said.
Furthermore, I'm trying not to say much on the matter of your person health because I'm working on a entire full-length book on that subject in which I will be demonstrating that "mental illness" does not exist. Some people might have brain damage, but there is no mental illness. I know some people here will have serious objections; I just hope when I come out with the book, you all will read it and carefully consider the matter.
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Furthermore, I'm trying not to say much on the matter of your person health because I'm working on a entire full-length book on that subject in which I will be demonstrating that "mental illness" does not exist. Some people might have brain damage, but there is no mental illness. I know some people here will have serious objections; I just hope when I come out with the book, you all will read it and carefully consider the matter.
Now that sounds like yet another good book :). I look forward to reading the book when it comes out because I have had serious doubts for a lot of years now about the validity of "mental illness". All of the people I have met who claim to have a "mental illness" are people who constantly make bad decisions in life and would rather "debate" Biblical matters rather than accepting them.
I got a surprise years ago when one of the men in the Baptist "church" I was a part of claimed that I was the cause of him having to be on anti-depressants during a discussion I was having with him. It sure looked like all of his skills from having been in the debating club when he was at school wasn't getting him very far ..... not with me anyway. He was in full support of pastors .... and feminism .... and the NIV .... and I just kept ruining his day for him. He didn't even have to keep talking with me all the time ..... he chose to. Lucky him, he hasn't had to put up with me for a lot of years now. I wonder if he is still on "anti-depressants".
Actually I don't think his "anti-depressants" were working anyway ::)
And then there was the ardent feminist with a mental illness who hated me, but that's another story ???
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I, too, am very much looking forward to reading this book. I know quite a few people who supposedly have 'mental illnesses' who use that as an excuse for bad behaviour and to get out of doing things they don't want to do.
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In case anyone else decides to read this thread in the future, I wanted to update it and note that Jephte departed from this forum a couple of months before I finished the book on psychology.
Psychology: Hoodwinked by the Devil (http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/psychology.php)
As you can see, Masha made comments that she ought to "contemplate" (i.e. think on) the things I said, but in the end, she left this forum in a huff because she was offended. We had years of discussion with her (and a little with her husband, who hated me from the start), and she just kept doing and saying the same selfish things over and over, as if she could not understand.
What's sad about it is that this conflict triggered Jephte to leave before I could finish the book, and he was one of the people I was hoping would read it. Masha does not understand that her selfishness effects others in ways she cannot predict, and that we all should take caution with our tongues, but I wanted to leave a link to the book at the end of this so others can find it if they are willing to hear the truth of God's Word.
I'm locking this thread so we can move on.