Dear Chris, You are right that I sometimes take little time to think about what I post. I gladly take your correction on that. I apologise for doing that, and I will try to contemplate and think more thoroughly before I post. I am sorry if it has harmed anyone.
In your post you make quite a few assumptions/accusations that I believe I should address. Please always remember that we have never been in the same room together, and you cannot by far say that you actually know me, nor that you know my motivations, thoughts, feelings, contemplation, convictions, understanding unless I specifically share them with you.Interesting that we've never been in the same room with Paul either, but we tend to thoroughly and intimately study what he wrote in the New Testament. I don't know about any of you, but I have ever experienced a face-to-face sit down conversation with Jesus, but I know quite a bit about Him, and quite intimately.
This "you can't know my heart" garbage is exactly the same thing I hear out of mouths of the new-age churchgoers.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
-Mat 12:37
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
-Mat 15:18Masha, for you to sit here and act like no one can know you by what you say; you are too experienced as a Christian to not understand this by now. Do you listen to any of the teachings that I do, or did you stop listening some time ago? Because I've brought up those Scriptures many times in a wide variety of teachings. We can know your heart by your words, so unless you believe Christ was lying about that, don't try to hide it.
You wrote:
I can almost guarantee what you did was see Tina say, "I want a list" you Google searched for a list, found a list, and posted a list, without first thinking about Tina, and this is why I think Masha and I conflict with one another so much on this forum.
I did not respond to Tina's question about a list, but to what Jeanne wrote:
Tina, first of all, you need to introduce yourself before you start posting. Please read that rule here:
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=20.0
Second, if you read the article on 501(c)(3), you would know that Chris is just one person who has done his research on the topic. He has no knowledge nor way of finding out where non-incorporated churches are. That is something you will have to do on your own, or just become a part of the community here. NONE of us knows where there are unleavened church buildings in our areas, which is one of the main reasons for our being here.
She says you have no knowledge nor any way to find out. That is why I thought it could be helpful to post the list.So, what I would ask you to do is read what Jeanne wrote very carefully. She went on to say that none of us knows where there are
UNLEAVENED church buildings in our areas. Is that website link a list of UNLEAVENED churches, or is it a list of non-501c3 churches?
If you'll also take a moment to look, Tina has
ONE post on her account. That's it. She didn't even introduce herself. How do you know that she didn't take your list, ignore everything we've tried to explain to her, and run with it? I don't believe she did, but you need to understand these things beforehand. It is hypocritical for you to say how much I don't know about you (even though you and I have had many discussions in the past), when you don't know Tina's motivations, thoughts, feelings, contemplation, convictions, and understanding, so don't put those requirements and responsibilities on everyone else when you haven't done it either. (i.e. Tina didn't say enough to discern much from, other than the fact that she doesn't understand leaven.)
I did not google search the list. I receive an email update from this church and the list is a link underneath the message.It's as good as if you did, because you obviously didn't know anything about what you sent her. You just sent it. That was obvious. I don't need prior knowledge of your "motivations" or "feelings" to know that fact. Do you know why I said "
I can ALMOST guarantee" instead of using the words "definitely guarantee?" Because I don't know where exactly you got it from, but I did know that you didn't bother to look into anything that was on it, nor did you ask anyone here to help you with it if you needed help, which (if I may be so bold as to speak on everyone else's behalf) we would have been more than willing to do for you if you requested it. Because I discerned that information, I knew it was no better than you doing a google search and pulling up the first thing you found without consideration; so let's not try to hide that fact by covering it up with a "but-it-came-from-a-newsletter" speech.
. Masha, knowing nothing at all about Tinas beliefs, why would you even send her that list? You obviously didn't take the time to research anything.
I stated clearly that I did not do any research, I never claimed to endorse these churches. The website itself also clearly warns about the churches listed, with a very clear defined disclaimer:
DISCLAIMER: We do not endorse the Churches listed on this page or expect them to be in agreement with ours in all points of doctrine. Known differences from our Church will be briefly noted. The only requirements to be included are:
(1) That their sole authority for faith and practice is the KJV Bible; (2) That they are under the sole headship of the Lord Jesus Christ (not incorporated or 501c3 tax exempt);. and (3) That they hold to historic Baptist doctrine. We welcome your recommendation of any Churches that would qualify to be added.And that does not mean that those churches are unleavened; INCLUDING Sam Adam's "Independent Baptist".com. Did you know he teaches that 'repent' means "to turn from sin?" The fact is that you have no concern for someone who might potentially be a new Christian to send her straight into leaven without consideration. That's the point of what I said to you.
(As a side note, you'll notice that they don't welcome recommendations of any churches that would qualify to be removed; that's because, likely, the website's church is also leavened. They don't care about doctrine, they only care about the surface problems; namely, whether or not they have a 501c3 contract, or if they share the same leavened denomination.)
What's amazing about the website, and about you, is that neither of you seem to know what the word 'endorse' means:
endorse (v): to approve, support, or sustainThe very fact that you are linking people to these websites and ministers is "support." I've talked about this many times in my teachings, where people on facebook have all these wicked movies, music, TV shows, and other garbage that has all this worldly, sinful stuff on it, but then say, "I'm not endorsing them;"
YES THEY ARE! That's the definition of endorsement because when someone goes to a website link, finds a leavened church, and joins it, they got that
FROM YOU! You endorsed this by sharing it, and then claimed you were not endorsing it. I'm not saying I've never done that same thing by accident; maybe I've done it before on this forum, but I'm not going to sit here and deny it if I'm called out on it.
Do you honestly believe that we all do not have the capability of google-searching a list? Do you think that I, and others here, have not found such lists before? Do you honestly believe THAT is the reason I (and others here) have never posted any links to sites that have them?
I do not think that.
Instead of choosing to sit down with Tina and help her understand the source of the problem, you just posted the first thing off the top of your head, and if you wonder why you and I have had so many arguments, and why you're not getting the "edification" you want (which you previously complained about in another thread), this is one of many examples to show you why that is; you simply post quick responses (a lot of which are almost identical to each other) without taking the time to consider what you're saying and doing.
You are right I could have better sit down with Tina, but you know that I cannot possibly do that. As far as I have understood none of you have sat down with Tina. (Consider matthew 7)"Sit down" is a figurative term there; I apologize if it seemed to be literal. However, please stop trying to dodge the point. We did attempt to explain to her the foundational problem. And don't try this back-handed slap of "consider Matthew 7," which anyone would take to mean that you are implying (in cowardice murmuring, instead of stating directly) that I have a beam through my eye because I dared to rebuke you; that's complete childishness Masha.
Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
-1Co 14:20Bringing up the rebuke/edify post... to what purpose?Go research the context of your own words. I'm not going to (literally) sit here and waste my entire day re-explaining things to you that were already discussed.
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?topic=480.msg3557#msg3557You do not specify your statement: ), this is one of many examples.
I will gladly receive knowledge of all the many examples. No, you won't. You've rejected them many times, and remained in denial. The only reason I don't want to go pull all that back up is because I have to go back over years worth of emails and posts to search for information to put out here (
which has already been done for you before, but you conveniently forget these things), and that will soak up my entire day which I planned on using for study and writing because I've got a lot to get done. (i.e. I've already spent 2 hours this morning answering emails and forum posts like this.)
As said before you are right I sometimes post quick responses, and I should take more time to consider what I say or do. I apologise for doing so, and I will do my best to better myself. I hope you will all have patience with me. If you understood that, then then why are you fighting this? There was no need for you to try and make all these excuses.
Nevertheless Chris, it seems your criticism and dislike of me go beyond this. You apparently do not like me, and that is fine. I am not alive so that I can please you.
I have a clear conscience, I am well able to take correction when it is Biblical, grounded and founded. Your personal opinion about me is very limited and therefore not very valuable. I (literally) do not care whether or not you think my opinions are valuable. I (literally) do not care if you think my rebuke was not Biblically grounded. I also don't care how nice you want to appear to be on the outside. Here's what I care about: Young Christians who are seeking understanding, and through your selfishness, you are leading them astray. I've met many people who have been in denial about a number of subjects, and of all those people, they are almost impossible to talk to because there is an excuse for everything. I'm simply looking to guard new Christians against your carelessness, which, in your somewhat veteran status as a Christian, you ought to know better. (i.e. If someone else new had done this, I would have had more patience and responded differently.) I just hope that, in the process, others might learn more about the foundational matters, and not be led astray because you were thinking of yourself first and not them.
If indeed you have an accusation of me being in error or doing something harmful to anyone here, teaching false doctrine, lie, break any forum-rule or have trespassed in any way, you may obey God and handle that in a Biblical manner:
Matthew 18 15, Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16, But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17, And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.Yeah, it's very simple:
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
-Gal 5:9Do you require that we explain to you what leaven is? If yes, let someone know. If not, do you care at all whether there is leaven among us?
I would say that's the first problem. The second one would be this:
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
-Philippians 2:1-4If we are to have comfort in love as a whole, and have fellowship in the Spirit, we need to be of like mind, and look to the things of one another. Not thinking of ourselves first, but of others first. Granted, I've got a lot of improvement to do on that matter, so I'll give that disclaimer before I continue.
In the beginning, when you first started to contact me and/or us as a church, I did my best to be kind and inviting, and you even joined our church for a short time and talked with us over Skype, but very quickly, you went from trying to understand, to trying to have a excuse for things, and you departed from our church, but then stuck around on the forum for some reason. It did not take long, and from that early time, you have continued a pattern of selfishness in your words that, likely, few Christians here have discerned because they are blinded by outward niceties. It went from me viewing you as a peacemaker, to discovering a pattern of selfishness and denial.
In this particular instance (in this thread), we were trying to look on the things of Tina, but the reason you posted that link was for selfish reasons. You were trying to be helpful, right? Being helpful makes you feel good about yourself, and if you can do that in a speedy, 20-second post, it's like instant gratification. You don't have to do any work for it, and it makes you look good on the outside. There are people out there, and I believe you are one of them, who have a desire to be helpful out of a selfishness to feel better about themselves rather than a willingness to sacrifice their time and energy for someone else. I've been huge hypocrite on that point because I've been guilty of that very same thing (i.e. doing what I want to do for others instead of making the sacrifice to do what needs to be done), so I know how to recognize it in other people when I see it.
I am firm with you because I've seen this pattern, and I have to continually rebuke it, which causes me to lose patience. Most people who are like that typically end up departing from this forum after a short time (or we have to kick them out). You seemed to be repentant of a number of things, which is why no one has objected to you staying. However, the problem I have is that each instance of contention is only addressing the surface symptoms, and not the underlying problem, namely, selfishness and denial of the truth. Until those underlying problems are fixed, these controversies will keep happening, and you will never clearly see
WHY it keeps happening.
