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First Disgruntled Flat Earth Cultist

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creationliberty:
Since I publish my book, The Heresies of the Flat Earth Cult, in the spring of 2023, I receive my first email from a disgruntled flat earth cultist. This person has been a listener of my teachings since 2018, but this is not new. I have frequently experienced this happening whenever I come out with a new teaching, and then, eventually, end up losing listeners because they got upset. It happens all the time. The only reason I have anyone listening, or any support to continue to work, is because of the Lord Jesus Christ sending people who want to hear and learn, and if He ever takes that away, I can only give him praise for His grace on me because I never deserved any attention in the first place.
CHRISTIAN FROM IOWA - JUNE 18th, 2023
So Chris,

I'm not really looking to get in to a heated debate here, but I'm really confused. In the same sentence you claim to be completely disinterested in the topic of the flat earth and yet call us all a bunch of heretics. I've been following you for years and you're nearly always on point with sound doctrine.

Many of the verses you use to claim the flat earth community cherry picks are far from what I would've suggested as flat earth verses. However, I would ask you this. Could you tell me what the globe was spinning around for the first 3 days before God created the sun and the moon?

Sometimes God has a specific reason for granting certain knowledge to us based upon what he wants us to do for him. Like in Luke 8:10, sometimes it is granted to us to understand some of the mysteries, and the rest is in parables. The knowledge of the flat earth is similar to the gift of tongues. It's not a sign for those who already believe but for those who do not already believe. You're completely right, it does not affect your salvation. But imagine millions of non-believers suddenly confronted with the undeniable fact that they were created.

There is only one thing I would ever use a concordance to argue with you about. Open one and tell me what the Hebrew word "NASA" means. Then ask yourself why they're the largest consumer of helium on Earth. I don't recall inert gases being used in rocketry.

Chris, we're not the ones who laugh at the other side. We're the ones who pay attention, and study deeply. If you're not interested in this topic at all, then why are we ALL heretics?
It's clear from your letter that you did not read the book because you're asking loaded questions that are based on strawman arguments. Read and find out the argument that I made in the book, then come back and we can talk about it.
That makes no sense at all. I most certainly DID read your entire book. You literally just projected everything you're doing on to me. That's no doing in my mind that you've dealt with people like that, that cannot maintain composure. That's the majority of all people, including believers.

All I did was question your credibility on the subject which you yourself have admitted to having zero interest in. Don't gaslight me with that shutdown tactic. Stand on what you believe. Can I seriously deflate you with one question?

What did the heliocentric globe orbit around for the first 3 days it existed, before God created the sun?
Oh, you did read the ENTIRE book?  ??? That's odd, because your writing does not reflect that you did. Interesting. People lie to me about that all the time, but I'll take your word for it unless I find more evidence to the contrary.
I'm not sure where the disconnect is for you, but let's analyze those questions of yours:

Could you tell me what the globe was spinning around for the first 3 days before God created the sun and the moon?
If you're going to write a response to my book, you have to stay on topic. What does that question have to do with the fact that FECs cherry-pick Scripture out of its context and refuse to discuss it?

If you're not interested in this topic at all, then why are we ALL heretics?
Because you are cherry-picking Scripture out of its context and refusing to discuss it.

Can I seriously deflate you with one question?
Does that have anything to do with FECs cherry-picking Scripture out of context and refusing to discuss it? Because so far, based on what I read in your letter, and that you have not addressed anything I said in my book, you seem to have no problem with FECs cherry-picking Scripture out of context and you, so far, have not discussed it. The book was not focused on scientific matters, which, if you read it, you would already know, so why are you trying to address scientific matters in your letters with me instead of Scripture?

In case you do not understand my meaning, I do not see any place where you quoted what I said, and then wrote out an objection to what I said with Scriptural quotations and contextual analysis to prove my error. That's how you make a proper argument against someone else's argument when it concerns Scripture. The fact that you have not attempted that yet is demonstrating that you are avoiding discussion about the context of Scripture, which is proving the point I made in my book, as you should already know because you claim to have read it in its entirety.

What did the heliocentric globe orbit around for the first 3 days it existed, before God created the sun?
What does that have to do with the fact that FECs cherry-pick Scripture out of its context and refuse to discuss it? That was the entire focus of my book, which you said you read. I hope I'm not deflating you with one question.

Have a great day.
My point exactly. You're using every tactic you can to deflect and avoid answering the question, because you know you don't have a leg to stand on in this discussion. I'm guessing we're at the part where I never hear from you again.

No, I didn't mean YOUR book, my question has everything to do with GOD'S book. (Or have you forgotten that you're a pastor?)

Genesis 1:14-19 - The Fourth Day

Here's my BIBLE question, Pastor. I don't care about your hastily put together hit piece on flat earth believers. I'm going straight to the source, God's Word.

I'll hold your hand one more time:
What (IN THE BIBLE), did the heliocentric globe orbit around for the first 3 days before God created the Sun and the Moon?
My point exactly. You're using every tactic you can to deflect and avoid answering the question, because you know you don't have a leg to stand on in this discussion. I'm guessing we're at the part where I never hear from you again.
I'll try this one more time because we're quickly approaching the "wasting-my-time" part of the conversation. You wrote to me to address the book that I wrote:
In the same sentence you claim to be completely disinterested in the topic of the flat earth and yet call us all a bunch of heretics.
There's only one thing on my website that refers to flat-earth cultists as heretics, and that is my book, namely, The Heresies of the Flat Earth Cult. The context of your sentence came from the introduction to the book. Therefore, if you want to address the subject matter of my book and argue against it, you need to address the arguments made in my book, which requires quotations. If you are not going to address the arguments I made in my book, then I literally (no pun intended) have other things I need to be doing right now.

No, I didn't mean YOUR book, my question has everything to do with GOD'S book. (Or have you forgotten that you're a pastor?)
Where did you get the idea that I'm a pastor? I've never claimed to be one.

Genesis 1:14-19 - The Fourth Day
Here's my BIBLE question, Pastor.
I'm not a pastor, and such titles are unbiblical in the New Testament Church.
Titles Are Unbiblical in the Church

I don't care about your hastily put together hit piece on flat earth believers. I'm going straight to the source, God's Word.
If you don't care about my book, then why did you write to me fussing about it?
It's because you didn't read my book, did you? I believe you're lying to me.
I most certainly DID read your entire book.
Here's my guess: You read the title of the book and likely, you might have read some of the introduction, but that's probably all you did. That sound about right?
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
-Pro 18:13

So that brings us to an impasse. As you stated earlier, I have no personal interest in the subject of flat earth (i.e. "you claim to be completely disinterested in the topic of the flat earth"), and you also stated that you have no interest in my book on the subject of flat earth. (i.e. "I don't care about your hastily put together hit piece on flat earth") Thus, I'm not interested in your conversation, and you're not interested in mine. Therefore, you and I have no interest or reason to discuss the flat earth subject.

So yeah, I end discussions with people who lie to me, and I also end discussions with those who send me lazily-written emails while refusing to read and address the arguments that I spent months researching and writing about. That's why you won't quote me and make a proper argument... you can't quote what you haven't read.

I hope you have a great day.
Okay, I'll play along and copy paste one absurdity you claimed in your book. Will you answer my Bible question then?

In fact, the Lord God even uses the phrase "the whole earth" to refer to a specific region of the planet, not to the entire planet:
And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such. For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.
-Exodus 10:14-15

If we interpreted this as FECs do, then we would have to believe that these locusts covered the entire planet, punishing everyone around the world for what the Pharaoh in Egypt did. However, if we look carefully at the passage, it says that the locusts "rested in all the coasts of Egypt," which indicates they did not pass beyond the coasts, and so even though it says the locusts "covered the face of the the whole earth," it means only "through all the land of Egypt."

You claim that "IF WE INTERPRET THIS THE WAY FLAT EARTHERS DO, THEN WE WOULD HAVE TO BELIEVE..."

As I told you before, we're reading the same Bible you are. To me personally, this statement appears that you're making a broad sweeping general statement about all people who believe the Earth is flat.

If you would prefer that I completely analyze the entirety of your book before asking questions, will you them answer my Bible question? I'm willing to let you stall for as much time as you need.

When you involved the Bible, you made it my right to challenge what you claim. And yet, I'm only asking for your expert opinion on the Fourth Day of Creation.

What did the globe orbit around for the first 3 days of creation, before God created the sun?

And did He place it inside or outside of the firmament? Same place where the Bible says he put the birds.
END OF DISCUSSION
I found it ironic that Christian has written to me emails in which he prides himself as a "Heretic Hunter." Christian wrote me another email with an attached audio file that he wanted me to listen to, but I'm not bothering listening to it, and I'll explain why.

I'm not really looking to get in to a heated debate
Someone who isn't looking to get into a heated debate doesn't keep pushing to have one. They also don't go out of their way to send multiple emails after I've said I would end discussion. This indicates dishonesty. It doesn't prove dishonesty, but it's a small piece to the puzzle.

I don't care about your hastily put together hit piece on flat earth
If he didn't care about it, why did he write me an email complaining about it? Furthermore, this man has been listening to my teachings for at least five years (I checked my email records and found out), which means that Christian is well-aware that I spend MONTHS preparing books and articles. I work on this ministry daily. This is not something that I take lightly, and he full-well knows that, so the fact that he said it was "hastily" written showed his deception and bias. These were already major warning signs that I was dealing with someone who was not being honest with me.

Then, in his self-proclaimed attempt to "answer" a point I made in the book, he quoted me giving an example of the error of flat earth doctrine, and how they take the Bible out of context. In Christian's response, he did NOT quote any Scripture, nor did he offer any other explanation for the verses in question, but rather, he just complained that he didn't like what I said:
As I told you before, we're reading the same Bible you are. To me personally, this statement appears that you're making a broad sweeping general statement about all people who believe the Earth is flat.
That's it. There's nothing else here. Just like every other flat-earth cultist I have EVER talked to in my tenure as an evangelist, they love to whine, they love to falsely accuse others, but they will NOT discuss the Scriptures because they know that thorough analysis of the Bible will tear down their house of cards.

There are other deceptive comments Christian made that I did not address to him directly because it would not have made any difference in his understanding. For example:
Many of the verses you use to claim the flat earth community cherry picks are far from what I would've suggested as flat earth verses.
I don't know how many websites and videos I looked at while doing research for "Biblical" cosmology, but it was a lot. They were ALL the same. I encourage all of you to look up these things for yourself and see if what I addressed was not the primary Bible arguments that are most commonly made by FECs. And furthermore, notice that Christian did not offer what the primary Bible arguments were... he just said I was wrong, but that's standard operating procedure for FECs, namely, in their minds, assertion is proof.

Now, to address his initial question:
Could you tell me what the globe was spinning around for the first 3 days before God created the sun and the moon?
This question was not asked so that Christian could gain understanding. This question was asked as an accusation, in which he thought he would challenge me to something that I would not be able to answer, or that would shake my position. The Pharisees did the same thing to Jesus, if I recall correctly.

The question is loaded, meaning that it has presuppositions built-in to the question, which makes it nonsensical. Why does the earth have to be spinning around anything for the first 3 days? In fact, time is only relative to God's creation of it, and the parameters of measurement he set for it. Let me answer his question with another question, as Jesus often did to those who asked Him deceptive questions:

The sun, moon, and stars will be destroyed and a new earth will be made, as it says it Revelation. So how, then, will there be light in the thousand-year reign of Christ?

The Bible answers that:
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
-Rev 21:23
That's because the Lamb (i.e. Jesus Christ) IS light, just as God IS light:
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
-1Jo 5:1
God doesn't need the earth to be spinning around anything. The problem is the lack of perspective from earth-bound observers, specifically, mankind, and our limited understanding in which we think we have some sort of knowledge, when in fact, our knowledge is not even worth the discussion we give it in comparison to God's knowledge and understanding.

However, Christian has been infected by FEC doctrines, to the point that he makes a poor analogy:
The knowledge of the flat earth is similar to the gift of tongues.
The gift of tongues in Acts 2 was a miracle, whereas cosmology is natural, as classified by God's laws of creation, meaning that, special divine intervention is required for tongues, whereas it is not for cosmology. That's why tongues were a sign for God's church, but "Biblical" cosmology is just a load of garbage that comes from religious cultists who don't have a clue what the Bible actually says because they willingly blind their eyes to the contextual meaning of Scripture.

There's much more I could respond to in this, but I think I've made the point. You all can comment with your own analysis.

Zoologistkid:

--- Quote --- It's not a sign for those who already believe but for those who do not already believe. You're completely right, it does not affect your salvation. But imagine millions of non-believers suddenly confronted with the undeniable fact that they were created.
--- End quote ---
Translation: God's word is not sufficient enough to save those unbelievers and only we (the FECs) can open their eyes to the truth.
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2 Timothy 2:25

The unbelievers are already confronted with the undeniable fact they are created daily.
(To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Psalms 19:1

But many still will go to hell, why? It is because no evidence will ever convert the heart.
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Psalms 19:7

None of these FEC will ever point to the law as their starting point of faith but the flat earth, which is their true "god".

creationliberty:
That's a good point, and I believe that Christian is simply parroting the doctrine he learned from the flat-earth cultists, and not thinking about what he's saying. The Bible clearly tells us that it is the law of God that converts a man, not the shape of the earth.

However, your use of Psalm 19:1 is actually not in context. I used to use it that way too, until I understood later that the verse is a metaphorical reference to the church. It's not talking about the sky or outer space. You may want to read my book because I cover that in more detail.

Zoologistkid:
Sorry, I have been reading your book but I thought it meant that everything clearly showed that the Lord had created it. Thank you for pointing that out Chris, it really goes to show there is still a lot for me to learn. I am thankful the Lord has granted us the wisdom to understand and reason these issues out.
I read that part about what you said about Psalms 19:1 and you are right, I got that meaning from those creationist organizations. I really do need to study things I thought I already knew the meaning of in the context of the Word.

Here are the verses that fit my original post much better:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans 1:20-21

anvilhauler:
The other thing about Exodus and commenting about the whole earth

Re: In fact, the Lord God even uses the phrase "the whole earth" to refer to a specific region of the planet, not to the entire planet:
And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such. For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.
-Exodus 10:14-15


If the locusts covered the whole earth then how come Goshen was not affected and Pharaoh was told that the plagues would affect the Egyptians.

Exodus 8 King James Version
21 Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.

22 And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lord in the midst of the earth.

And likewise with the hail as with all of the plagues that God brought upon the Egyptians.  It goes without saying really.

Exodus 9 King James Version
25 And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.

26 Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.

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