Messages

21

Introduce Yourself / Re: Brian's introduction

« on: August 19, 2022, 08:15:45 AM »

Thanks for your response Brian. Sorry about the late response, it's taken me some time to write this, and also I'm sorry because it's extremely long.

Thank you Ellie. It's nice to meet someone from a neighboring state. As for me being experienced, I have to laugh, because that reminds me I'm experienced in making lots of mistakes. I also grew up with older siblings, so I have always felt young. I'm slowly realizing that when I meet with people, I'm often the older or oldest.  It's good for my humility!  My son and daughter are in their 20's. I don't know if they have been on this site yet, but I plan to mention it to them. I think I've shared at least one of Chris' article links recently. 

Don't worry about typically being the oldest, there are at least a couple here that are older than you. As for me, I am the youngest in the church here I guess a similar age to your children which is neat, I'm 22.

I have spent some time looking into the Geneva vs King James issue and this has actually been quite an interesting study and I appreciate the suggestion to do so because it’s challenged me and it’s been quite beneficial. You made a good point about calling the Geneva corrupt without knowing much about it. I should have been more careful how I said that, because in my mind I was thinking specifically about the undoubtably corrupt new age versions that I am more familiar with than Geneva but I didn’t think to specify that. Anyway, in my search I wanted to keep my mind open to being changed because I know I have been wrong before and I even used to read new age versions so I know I have been deceived on bible versions in the past. Though I have to admit that I found something that has actually led me to confirm my trust in the King James translation and has made me wary to use the Geneva at best.

I don’t think that the name of the translation is enough evidence that the King James Version is suspect or less trustworthy, or otherwise inferior to the Geneva. Based on the information I found, I agree that if all of that is true about him, then King James was a wicked man and he did many evil things. However, Chris made some points on a call yesterday and he found different information about King James that is contrary to the mainstream “history,” about him being incredibly wicked and murderous and I am unsure what is true. We’ve seen ourselves today how people can twist history and make up lies in order to suit their own agendas, so I can’t say that I fully believe either side at the moment. But either way I do think it would be nice if it were named something else, but the name simply distinguishes it from other translations as the one that King James was involved with. And if he was as terrible as many claim, I do believe God can use wicked men/kings if He so chooses in order to fulfill His will on specific things (in this case I'm referring to the translation of the KJV).

And I’d add that if someone is going to dismiss reading the Word of God entirely and reject Him simply because the specific translation in their language is “named after a politician,” then the problem there would be their own pride and unwillingness to hear a matter before they make up their minds about it. At that point, it seems to me like just an excuse to continue ignoring God’s word, and I wouldn't blame the KJV for that. That's just the pride of heart, and God will reject that anyway.

He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. - Proverbs 18:13

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. -  James 4:6

What matters more to me when I am determining which translation I am going to trust is about the content rather than what person or what place it is named after. And I obviously haven’t read the entire Geneva or even the entire KJV yet. But I have found something that, to me, makes the Geneva at least somewhat suspect and leads me to continue to prefer the KJV. I was looking into some arguments in support of the Geneva version over the KJV, and in doing so I came across some verse comparisons between the 2 translations. Here’s the first comparison listed by one guy in defense of the Geneva, Matthew 4:17:

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (King James)

From that time Iesus began to preach, and to say, Amende your liues: for the kingdome of heauen is at hand. (Geneva)

Somewhat ironically, the guy who wrote this said that this was his favorite comparison between them in support of the Geneva, but this verse immediately put me on guard against the Geneva more than anything else that I had read about it up until that point. Because repentance is required for salvation, so the fact that it was phrased differently here caused me to want to look into some other verses about it and compare the two. Here is the one that I have found so far that most clearly demonstrates the issue I have with it, Luke 13:3:

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (King James)

I tell you, nay: but except ye amend your liues, ye shall all likewise perish. (Geneva)

I’ll explain my reasoning for why this verse discrepancy alone has me inclined to not trust the Geneva, and to continue using the KJV. So this verse contains a very simple, clear, and direct message, and it is a very important one because it has to do with salvation vs death and hell. Jesus says unless you ______, then you are going to perish. Between these two versions, one of them is saying that you must amend your life otherwise you are going to perish, and the other one is saying that you must repent or you will perish. That isn’t merely a different phrasing of the same concept, these are two completely different things based on the definitions. Repentance is having sorrow over one’s wrongdoing or sin, and amending your life is changing or correcting your actions. We know what the words mean but I’ll include the definitions (from Websters 1828) anyway because I think they’re interesting to compare:

REPENT'ANCE, noun
1. Sorrow for any thing done or said; the pain or grief which a person experiences in consequence of the injury or inconvenience produced by his own conduct.
3. Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is called evangelical repentance and is accompanied and followed by amendment of life.

AMEND'MENT, noun
1. An alteration or change for the better; correction of a fault or faults; reformation of life, by quitting vices.

I found these interesting because with repentance it states that it is sorrow and contrition for sin “…accompanied and followed by amendment of life.” With true repentance (godly sorrow), God gives the desire to amend one’s life by the Holy Spirit, but sorrow of sin is not the same thing as amendment of one’s life. And also, if someone on their death bed comes to sorrow of sin and faith in Christ, but has no chance to begin to amend their life, then Christ will still save him. Someone can amend their life, or change it for the better, and be completely devoid of any godly sorrow or faith at all.

I do want to note though, that another point was made by Chris on this yesterday was that it’s possible that someone can argue that the meaning of “amend” here could be referring to something else besides doing works. I can’t quite remember the way he explained it, but it could mean an amendment in the sense of Christ’s amendment of someone’s soul or something along those lines, something that is more spiritual and not the works you do. And maybe that is possible, but I personally question it because it is a command to a person to amend their life, I don’t quite see how that doesn’t involve works at least to some degree (though I am open to the possibility). And I’ve seen how important the doctrine of repentance is especially now when people are even changing the meaning of it to claim it is “turning from sin” or “changing one’s mind.” And even if it’s a small possibility that this could be used to support a false gospel of works doctrine, I am personally wary of it and would not recommend it to someone or quote scripture with it. I'd rather go with the KJV.

All that to say, nobody is going to tell you that you must use only the KJV and not Geneva in order to be part of this church. That's your own personal choice, and that's okay if you like the Geneva more. The KJV is just what we use and prefer and I'd agree that being on the same page is a good thing as a group. This was just my own reasoning based on the most significant thing I've seen so far that can have an impact on doctrine. But several of us in the church do appreciate how you have chosen to quote the KJV to us out of consideration for us since that's what we use, that's a charitable thing to do despite your preferences.

By the way, since I notice you're a moderator, I wonder if you can please show me how to mark someone's post as encouraging. I saw some mention of it, but now I can't find it.

Hope I answered your questions. I look forward to learning more about people in this group.  So are you originally from Alabama? How long have you been in the group?  What is your favorite part of the group calls?

I believe you're referring to edification points. Once you reach a certain amount of posts (and I am actually unsure of how many it is, Chris may know), next to each person's posts on the left, you should get the option to "Edify" or "Rebuke" which will give them an Edification point or take one away.

To answer your questions about me, I'm actually from California originally. I lived there all my life (aside from a couple college semesters in Oregon) up until January 2021 when I moved to Alabama and got married. I met my husband Tim after joining the forum and we ended up speaking personally after I joined the church and got on the calls. Not long after that we hung out in person at a church meetup at Chris and Lorraine's house, and about a month later I moved to Tim's state and we got married.

I have been on the forum since September 2020 and I joined the church shortly after that--so I've been here almost 2 years. And I will have been saved for three years this December. If you want to read my testimony/introduction post it's here. Though it is another long one just to warn you.

I'd say that my favorite part of the group calls is simply that it's composed of other believers who are likeminded in the way that scripture talks about. The calls are the main way that God has provided for our group to be able to function as a body of believers despite the physical distance between all of us. This is the only place I personally have found (along with most of the others here) with other Christians who believe and preach sound doctrine. And it's pretty interesting because we have a handful of different countries and backgrounds that are represented here, so the internet and the calls gives us the opportunity to meet with other Christians regularly who we likely would have never met otherwise (during this lifetime at least). I am generally more quiet and I don't speak up as much as many of the others do (aside from the ladies group), but even so, I truly appreciate and enjoy the company of other believers and learning from them.

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. - Philippians 2:1-2

22

Introduce Yourself / Re: Brian's introduction

« on: August 17, 2022, 07:32:42 AM »

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the introduction, it's been an interesting read along with your other posts. You seem to have quite a lot of experience which is interesting and a good example for us here.

A few of my biggest blessings include having a godly wife and two adult children who are both born again.

It's really nice to hear that your children are also born again. I don't hear about that happening very often. How old are your children? And have they looked at any CLE materials? They don't have to of course if they don't want to--but I was curious if they have because they might enjoy it if they're also Christians.

Our Father has continued to unveil Truth, as I have searched and love to read his Word (through Geneva and KJV, which is another thing about this ministry that I think it important).

I know very little about the Geneva so I was wondering why you also use that one along with KJB? Chris has an article on the King James Bible, you may be interested to read it if you haven't. I have gotten more from the KJB than I have any of the other versions, and I'm glad I switched over when I learned about how the others are corrupt.

Out of curiosity, since you've found CLE what has been your favorite teaching you've found and why?

23

Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduction

« on: July 14, 2022, 09:38:27 PM »

Thanks for sharing more about your testimony and giving the answers to our questions. I am glad that you're taking some of the steps needed to get in a better place and that things with your mom are going better.

So I want to say some things about the situation with your girlfriend. I thought about saying something on the church call, but I didn't end up doing it. I regretted it but I am going to do it now since the opportunity has presented itself. This is going to be long, but I don't know how to fix that because I want to give my own experience and make a few points. I don't want to seem like we're being harsh on you about this and possibly drive you away from the church after you came back after a few years. I heard true repentance from you and I can only hope that you'll listen and consider these things.

So I had a situation similar to yours regarding a relationship with someone who wasn't saved. One difference is that he claimed to be a Christian but your girlfriend doesn't, based on what I can recall that you've told us. And I also began dating him before I was saved--I got saved more than a year into our relationship. I dated him for nearly 2 years, not as long as yours but it was still serious to the point that we had intentions of getting engaged and married.

When we got together he was a churchgoer and I was worldly and proud of it, but I eventually cleaned up my act a bit after he introduced me to churchianity. There was conflict in our relationship even then because I was uncomfortable with certain aspects of our relationship because I knew that what we were doing was wrong but he didn't really care about it, he was very lukewarm. At that time I began to wonder whether I should leave him or not because it didn't seem like he cared about the same things that we both claimed to believe in at that point. I stayed with him despite my doubt because I did like him, he was kind to me, fun to be around, and honestly, I didn't think I could find anything better after previous experiences. I also didn't have strong conviction to do the right thing because I wasn't saved.

Some time passed and eventually I got saved. Conflict arose more because of that. For months I debated with myself about whether or not I should leave him. On one hand, I cared about him a lot, I didn't want to give up the good parts of our relationship, and I also wanted to be patient and hold out hope that things could change. But on the other hand, I knew I wanted a good marriage with a man who had the same desire to live according to Christ's doctrine, I knew that something just wasn't right with him spiritually, and I knew about what scripture says about marriage and being unequally yoked.

I thought about it constantly and questioned what to do. I was completely torn apart over it and I couldn't let go of it because once I convinced myself it was OK to stay with him, I'd begin questioning it again and be full of doubt. No matter my justifications and how I tried to settle it in my mind, I simply knew it was not right even though I didn't have full understanding yet about why (i.e he is a false convert/not of Christ).

I had conversations with him about some of the issues and we seemed to be able to temporarily and superficially move on and try to work on things, however despite that, it wasn't truly solved. The spiritual separation was still there and it was irreconcilable. So after nearly 8 months (not including before I was saved) of going back and forth in my mind trying to force things to work, I broke up with him. I simply could not justify it anymore. The conviction that God put on me about it wouldn't go away no matter what I did. So I knew I had to.

I suffered loss during that period of time in other areas of my life because of other decisions due to conviction from God. But despite the loss of all those things, I finally had peace that I did what was right in God's sight. And the very next month after breaking up was when God blessed me with finding CLE where I joined the church, gained understanding, and met my husband Tim. I know with certainty that it was the right thing to do, and I am thankful beyond measure that God convicted me to do it because it wouldn't have been the same had I disobeyed to the point of marriage with an unbeliever. My relationship with my husband now is better than I could have imagined I'd ever have and I never would have had it if I strayed from God's commands.

So the reason I tell you all these things is because if you are a Christian like I believe you are, then I have confidence that the Holy Spirit has convicted you on these matters possibly even in a similar way that it happened to me. Perhaps if you see that someone else has done similar things, and has come out on the other side, you might be able to see more clearly what to do in your own situation and have faith that God will take care of you more than you can comprehend at the moment. (Not that all the same things that happened to me will happen to you, but in general). I know it is a hard decision to make, but you have nothing to fear on the other side of it. You will be okay. I know that because I have been there, and God's word confirms that you'll be more than okay:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. - 2 Corinthians 6: 14-18

He said that when you separate yourselves from the unbelievers you are unequally yoked to, He will be a Father unto you and receive you as a son. What is there to fear when the Lord Almighty made a promise like this?

I really do not want to be harsh, but I want to speak plainly because I have been there before and I know what I would have benefited from hearing when I went through the same thing. And of course it's all up to you what you'll do, God gives you liberty to make decisions, but I think you know what is right, you are just hesitant to do it because of what you believe that you're losing. I want to remind you of what Christ said here, and I realize it doesn't talk about leaving girlfriends specifically, but I believe it still applies:

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. - Mark 10:29-30

I am still dating my girlfriend. We have been together for 3+ years and I do love her, it’s not only lust. She knows my beliefs and I firmly tell her. We have a trip to Greece on July 23rd we have planned for a year and a half in advance and I plan on going, but I definitely have my concerns. I know what you guys said when I spoke with you and I know what I told you guys. I could use some deeper guidance on this situation, I will lay out the story of Her and I, but would keep the details private.

So you say that you love her, and I believe you. However, I want to point out that you are meant to be an ambassador of Christ to those around you. That doesn't mean just telling people what you believe but also by living it. When you stay with her despite the fact that you know she isn't of Christ, you are telling her by your actions (regardless of what you say to her) that it's okay to reject Jesus Christ, the One who you have testified to her about saving your soul from hell. She is on her way to hell right now, and if anything at all would demonstrate love for her, it is that you would stand up for what's truly right in His sight despite your emotions and time spent with her. If I may put it this way, it doesn't matter how firmly you tell someone the truth if your actions say the opposite. But if you do the right thing despite it causing you pain for the sake of Jesus Christ, then it will testify of the impact that He has had on your life more than words alone, because you will follow His commands instead of your own desires.

In addition, I think I should mention that I understand your love for her, but that should not surpass the love you have for Jesus Christ. Again, this doesn't mention girlfriends but the concept still applies here:

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. - Matthew 10:37-38

I hope that I didn't cross any lines here, and I am sorry this is so long. It's longer than I'd normally like to reply to someone who just joined the forum, but I think the situation permits it and I hope you understand.

24

Introduce Yourself / Re: John from FL

« on: July 14, 2022, 11:39:25 AM »

Hi John,

I found your testimony interesting and enjoyable to read, and I'm glad you've introduced yourself to us at CLE. And it's good to know you're interested in being a member! I didn't grow up with much churchianity experience when I was young but got into it later on. I can relate to some of what you mentioned though.

-I also read extra biblical content like Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, Jesus-is Savior.com, Ray Comfort’s Hell’s Best Kept Secret, and heard Paul Washer’s “Unpopular Youth Message”

I used to listen to Paul Washer after I was saved and I remember hearing that message. I didn't understand if I was saved yet (I didn't know what repentance was at the time, all the preachers I listened to preached works based repentance) but despite the leaven of Paul Washer, some of that definitely put more fear of God in me and I went over the scriptures he talked about in that sermon a lot after hearing it. I also used to listen to Ray Comfort's videos and I had a couple of his books on my kindle. I don't listen to them anymore because of their leaven and false doctrine specifically about salvation/repentance--that was the last straw for me once I read the truth about it here at CLE.

-I became undone after this. I couldn’t eat or sleep properly for at least a few weeks as I felt the hand of God heavy upon me. One night I couldn’t seem to fall asleep as I sincerely trembled knowing God could throw me into hell at any moment and be justified. I actually prayed, in my heart “please God, don’t let me die until I know I’m saved”

This is a far cry from how I used to view myself. I got an honesty award in 3rd grade and a Christian character award in 6th grade. Deep down I knew I didn’t deserve these awards and was battling sin even as a young teen, but to finally see myself as God saw me (a hell deserving sinner) was definitely eye opening and terrifying. Nothing mattered anymore except knowing that my sins were forgiven.

Ultimately, I hit a point where after reading the words of the publican. I went to my bedroom and asked God directly to have mercy on me, a sinner.

I understand what you mean about not being able to eat or sleep properly. I think that's the fear of God and when your eyes are opened to the depth of sin and wickedness in your own heart after believing in your own lies all your life, it's hard to go on normally right away. Going from utter blindness to being able to see God and your own filthiness is sobering.

I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. -Job 42:5-6

Sadly, after this, I struggled for a long time regarding whether or not I was saved because there is so much confusion regarding how to be saved and how words are defined biblically.

 One teacher would correctly teach the law as the schoolmaster to Christ (which heavily convicted me) and then say repentance is a complete turning from sin and I needed to confess and to name the specific sins as a prerequisite for salvation (like Ray comfort). I didn't know if I had truly done what God asked of me and did not want to find out I was going to hell on Judgement Day.

Yep. I completely relate to that. When I was saved I listened to Paul Washer and some other preachers in his circle. People within that same clique who yoked together with each other. I appreciated their focus on the key verses about the law and false converts (like the parables), but their explanations of them only left me more confused and bothered than I was before. I questioned whether or not I did the "180 turn from sin" and how I could even know if I did that correctly. It goes back to the fact that they claim salvation is by faith alone, but yet they add works in a sly way while claiming that it's not by works. It just doesn't make sense, it is impossible to have both. This verse makes that perfectly clear, but they are blind to what they're saying and don't see the contradiction (because they have their faith in their works anyway).

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Romans 11:6

I also wanted to add that I am thankful for Chris’s teaching on repentance. I’ve only recently fully understood repentance through reading his article and then checking it against the words of scripture. It's crazy how grief and godly sorrow is clearly taught throughout both the Old and New Testament but so many church buildings and individuals get it wrong. Even I had it wrong for a long time.

I’ll fully admit at times I still question the validity of my faith and feel the need to examine myself, but I believe I was saved in my late teens. I'd be happy to answer any questions and will actually have a website up soon that may end up giving a few more details. Thanks.

Repentance is key and it helps so many other things in scripture make sense once you understand it.

I was curious what do you plan on using the website for? Would it be for casual blog type posts or something else? And also, how have your family/friends responded to the changes in your life since being saved?

Again, I enjoyed reading your testimony. Thanks for sharing! Hopefully you are edified by being among other Christians here.

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (BOOK) Corruptions of Christianity: Seventh-day Adventism

« on: July 12, 2022, 05:08:15 PM »

Christopher, I said I’d get back to you about this. I’m working on one of the teachings now and will let you know when it’s done.

Hi Anna. I really should have mentioned this before but now that you say this--I thought I should let you know that Tim taught me how to do the PDF's the way that he used to do them and I have been working on some (so far Psychology and Jehovah's witnesses). I didn't necessarily want to say anything about it--I simply wanted to just pick up and work on them since you asked Chris for some and I saw that others here also like having them. And since I currently have the free time to do it and since it was easy for Tim to teach me the way he did them previously, I thought it would be good to work on them and keep using the format he used so that they have a consistent look to them.

But I thought I should say something now because I don't know what you intend on doing at this point with converting the PDF's--since you said you were working on one now I'm not sure whether you intend to continue doing them or if it was just this one to see how it goes. And the reason I mention that is because if we both do them then it would probably be good to make sure we don't accidentally do the same ones. But this is all volunteer-based, so don't let me saying this make you feel obligated whatsoever to go either direction, and I don't want this to rush you in making a decision either. I'm just saying this because if by chance you do want to, then maybe let me know at some point since I intend on doing more, but if not--just carry on and don't worry about it.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduction

« on: July 09, 2022, 09:59:24 AM »

Hi John, glad to hear you’re doing better. You don’t know me specifically and I didn’t personally speak when you came on the call, but I’m Tim’s wife. I assume you remember him from before.

I am curious too about how things are going with what you spoke to us about. With your family, girlfriend, and what Rowan mentioned—if you’re comfortable with sharing. I hope that things are getting better and continue to do so. And I hope that fellowship with the church might be beneficial to you as well, I’m glad that you’ve begun to seek that out again after several years.

I heard the godly sorrow in what you spoke to us previously, but I too am curious about more details on your salvation. I just like hearing about it from people, like how they heard the Law and came to sorrow at the foot of the cross.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading your introduction and welcome back!

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduce Yourself

« on: July 06, 2022, 03:48:03 PM »

I agree with Chris here. I don't personally see a testimony of conversion unto Christ containing repentance (deep sorrow of sin against God) and faith in Jesus Christ. You seem to be a reasonable guy, and I hope you understand that I'm not saying this to offend you. But according to the scriptures, one must be born again in order to enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. - John 3:3

While many people don't realize it, beginning to listen to sermons about Jesus, reading the Bible, and going to church buildings isn't what it means to be born again--and according to the scriptures, it is not belief in Jesus Christ alone either. And as Chris explained, based on the timeline of events which you gave to us, it seems that you one day got into some false doctrine of "Hebrew Israelites," moved to another denomination, left it and then studied on your own. This alone does not show any evidence of conversion unto Christ (i.e. being born again through repentance and faith), but rather, it seems that you one day woke up and chose to take up the hobby of learning about the bible and then assumed that you were a Christian at some point along the line. I don't want your time to be wasted here either but I also hope that if possible, if you are one of those who "believe" in Christ but have never been born again, that you might hear the truth here, repent, and have true faith in Christ unto salvation. Because we do not want this to happen to you:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 27:21-23

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduce Yourself

« on: July 02, 2022, 11:45:05 PM »

Hi again Brian,

No worries about the late response, I appreciate you coming back anyway to discuss things further.

I'm curious as well about your replies to some of what Rowan asked. And I mentioned it previously but if you ever do still get to the book I sent you then I'd still be interested in your thoughts about it. Btw, it's not too long of a book, I think Chris said about 55 pages. I recommended it to you because it goes over the fullness of the gospel and also the doctrine of false converts which not many people preach according to the Christ's doctrine so it's a very valuable read. And if you even have any questions about anything you read you can let us know.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Introduce Yourself

« on: June 08, 2022, 07:10:10 AM »

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the info you've given so far. I was wondering if you could share any more detail about when you were born again?

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. - John 3:3

As you are reading through CLE material, I want to recommend this book to you. If you aren't sure how to answer my above question, it may be a message that is important for you to hear (or read). I linked the book, but here is part 1 of the audio teaching as well if that is more convenient for you to get through. And feel free to let us know if you have any comments or questions on the contents.

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Introduce Yourself / Re: Greetings

« on: May 11, 2022, 01:37:36 PM »

Hi Owen,

I agree that getting out of church buildings is very freeing. It's odd that many home churches use Francis Chan as their preacher. They left the church building, but I guess the churchianity never left them. 

I'm guessing that you recall the day you were saved, so I am wondering if you could give a bit more details about your testimony of salvation. And also, I was wondering if you've ever read or listened to Chris' teaching on repentance? Many people believe in false doctrines on that subject so I was curious about what your understanding of it is.

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Wild Emails @ CLE / Re: Another Hypocritical Pastor (Don Porter from Indiana)

« on: April 26, 2022, 09:16:12 AM »

Good point. And even if he did believe we were saved but just “immature Christians” like he said or basically babes in Christ, then why didn’t he actually spend time to correct our errors as a father might do? Where was his care for Jesus Christ’s little ones?

“And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:2-6‬

He said in another thread when he claimed to have been saved, and it would be 50 years if I remember correctly. So you'd think that someone who claims to have been saved that long would have grown in patience and compassion, but I guess that wasn't the case. He just chose to insult us and made his way out. If we were truly in error as immature Christians, it apparently wasn't worth his time to try to truly persuade and correct us. Oh well. It was pretty clear to me from the beginning that he was completely puffed up in pride and that he would end up leaving anyway.

32

Wild Emails @ CLE / Re: Another Hypocritical Pastor (Don Porter from Indiana)

« on: April 25, 2022, 03:23:37 PM »

You won’t upset me, I’m not the average Christian that refuses to reason together.
You lied.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
-Col 3:9

Wow. Glad you pointed that one out. Yeah, he completely refused to reason together on the forum whatsoever. He refused every single time, and was completely dismissive of anyone who said anything to him. It really does make me wonder if he was expecting to recieve praise about his accomplishments because even at the very first response to his introduction, Kenneth just asked him about his testimony. He didn't even go hard on him at that point, he was just asking for more details.

There’s nothing you can teach me about Salvation, Repentance, Christ, and the Church. All of your forum participants have the urge to edify themselves and create argument.

The fact that he went so far as to say "there's nothing you can teach me about Salvation, Repentance, Christ, and the Church" just shows his extreme pride and stubbornness. ​I don't think I would ever claim that there is nothing that I can be taught about those things even if I spent literally all of my time studying. I am definitely younger than him and I've been saved a shorter amount of time than I'm sure it took to complete all of his churchianity endeavors, but I'd imagine that others here who have been saved for longer than me wouldn't claim something like that either. God reveals new things to us at the times that He wills to and I imagine that the depth of understanding just keeps growing and building upon what we already do understand.

It appears that exalting Chris and not Christ is the drive of your followers.

Beware of them that cause divisions among you - your followers use the freedom of Grace to hurt the cause of Christ for selfish and fleshly reasons.

None of us even mentioned Chris in response to him. We addressed him on what he said and wanted his testimony of being saved by Jesus Christ. So it really is absurd when people make those accusations, it doesn't even make sense.

I also don't understand why asking someone how they got saved is hurting the cause of Christ. People like him who exalt themselves and their own achievements in the name of Christ are the ones who are guilty of that.

I saw nothing on your forum that supports individual soul liberty other than the individual haughtiness that was liberally meted out.

So, wisdom dictates that a mature Christian leave such childish games dealt to other Believers.

So he was claiming that we who talked to him were "haughty."

HAUGHTINESS, noun hau'tiness. The quality of being haughty; pride mingled with some degree of contempt for others; arrogance. Webster's 1828

CONTEMPT, noun [Latin See Contemn.]
1. The act of despising; the act of viewing or considering and treating as mean, vile and worthless; disdain; hatred of what is mean or deemed vile. This word is one of the strongest expressions of a mean opinion which the language affords. Webster's 1828

So haughtiness is pride mixed with contempt for others. He accused us of doing this, but even in that same reply to Chris, he was pridefully referring to himself as a "mature Christian" while claiming that we were playing "childish games" just because we addressed what he posted. This was one of his favorite insults toward us, to accuse us of being immature Christians whenever something was said to him that challenged him. Clearly, he was puffed up in pride and he had a lot of contempt for us because he didn't even consider us worthy enough to offer a charitable explanation/discussion with us. He just completely dismissed us and refused to reason things out. Here's some more quotes where he demonstrates his haughtiness very clearly.

I won't be bated into an argument, too many immature Christians dying to argue and, in the end, accomplish nothing.

Why am I here? Hoping to find Spiritual maturity, but that may be waning.

In response to me addressing him on the fact that he didn't find the definition of repentance to be "pertinent," he quotes this scripture, which I believe was meant to call me a fool and he used it to excuse himself from answering why he doesn't want to talk about repentance, his salvation, or answer our questions:

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

So based on the short time he was talking to us, I believe he made his pride and contempt for us quite clear once he realized he we weren't going to accept him unconditionally just because of his achievements and church positions.

33

Introduce Yourself / Re: A tad about Don

« on: April 24, 2022, 09:42:35 PM »

This question is not pertinent: According to your understanding (and/or teaching), what is the definition of the word 'repent'?

How is it that you, who claims to be of Christ, and has a supposedly extensive education, believe that the meaning of repentance is not "pertinent?" Repentance is literally required for someone to be saved and without it we will perish, and Jesus Christ Himself commanded men to repent, so how in the world is that not of any importance to you to see if we are on the same page when it comes to the most basic doctrines of salvation?

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Luke 13:5

“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17

Repentance is foundational. Scripture refers to it as one of the principles of the doctrine of Christ, so why are you unwilling to simply give an answer on that?

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." Hebrews 6:1-2

What is "pertinent" to you then, if not the basics of the doctrine of salvation?

Why am I here? Hoping to find Spiritual maturity, but that may be waning.

So, you're the one here who refuses to discuss even the most basic doctrines of Christ with us and you won't even tell us your testimony of salvation--yet you are looking down your nose at us about 'spiritual immaturity?' This really makes absolutely no sense. Those who are truly born again would typically love to discuss doctrine and to share about the day that Christ had mercy on them, so your refusal to do so while looking down on everyone who has simply asked you questions or shared their concerns with you makes it evident that you do not have the poor and contrite spirit scripture talks about.

“For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.” Isaiah 66:2

If you continue to puff yourself up in pride and scoff at the Christians here who did nothing wrong to you whatsoever, then you will not find fellowship and we are not going to flatter you about your vain achievements so you may want to go elsewhere if that's what you expected.

34

Introduce Yourself / Re: A tad about Don

« on: April 24, 2022, 01:33:18 PM »

What was your purpose in coming here then? Just to post about all your accomplishments and church building positions?

None of us care about that, and you’re mistaken if you thought you were going to get positive responses by copying and pasting from your list of accomplishments that you had just above your literal resume on your website. And now you don’t even want to discuss anything that was brought up to you about what you chose to post on here.

“But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭‬‬

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What's New @ CLE / Re: (WEEKLY TEACHING) Wolves in Costume: Kent Hovind p1

« on: April 19, 2022, 08:12:37 AM »

I wanted to look into it because I was curious, so the history of the word “narcissism” is actually based in Greek mythology. Based on some story of a young man named Narcissus who rejected someone’s romantic advances and then his punishment from the (false) gods for that was that he was forced to fall in love with his own reflection in the water which he later fell into and died. Here’s a quote describing the history of the word (emphasis mine):

narcissism (n.)
1905, from German Narzissismus, coined 1899 (in "Die sexuellen Perversitäten"), by German psychiatrist Paul Näcke (1851-1913), on a comparison suggested 1898 by Havelock Ellis, from Greek Narkissos, name of a beautiful youth in mythology (Ovid, "Metamorphoses," iii.370) who fell in love with his own reflection in a spring and was turned to the flower narcissus (q.v.). Narcissus himself as a figure of self-love is attested by 1767. Coleridge used the word in a letter from 1822.

(Source - etymonline )

So a psychiatrist coined the word after it’s use by Havelock Ellis referencing the mythology, and Ellis apparently was a physician, eugenist, and sexologist. (Upon a short reading about him, he seems like a pervert, but of course psychiatrists don’t have issue with being inspired by perverts…)

But that leads us to today, where Narcissistic personality disorder is a psychological diagnosis that is made by a few things, including psychological evaluation and the use of the DSM-5:

Diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder typically is based on:

Signs and symptoms
A physical exam to make sure you don't have a physical problem causing your symptoms
A thorough psychological evaluation that may include filling out questionnaires
Criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), published by the American Psychiatric Association

(Source- Mayo Clinic)

If all this is true, then it is a psychological term (originating from Greek pagan myths), and others who use it outside of that perspective are still using it based on the same traits and behaviors. Because the traits and behaviors are basically the same, it’s just one person is in an office doing some ”official” evaluation on a patient and using the DSM, while the other person is  just observing someones behaviors and drawing their conclusion by comparing it to the same basic list of characteristics—and they aren’t doing it to officially “diagnose” the person or prescribe some treatment plan, but just to describe someone.

It seems like if a “narcissist” were described in more biblical terms, it may be someone who has seared their conscience with a hot iron, and someone who has no charity but is full of hatred for their neighbor. If they know what they are doing yet don’t care and don’t want to change, then maybe that’s the case.

36

Introduce Yourself / Re: Kevin (Anvilhauler's) Testimony

« on: April 04, 2022, 09:27:22 AM »

Hi Kevin,

Your testimony was very enjoyable to read. Since you can't join the Skype calls it was nice to learn more about you and you life. It does make me sad to hear the details about the trouble that your ex wife gave you and the grief you have over missing your children. I am so sorry to hear that, it really broke my heart to hear. I hate how terribly men are treated by the courts and those around you who were blaming you for everything. But I am glad that you have been blessed by CLE and the Christians you know on here. Thanks for sharing this, it was well written and I always love to read other Christians' testimonies of repentance and faith in Christ.

37

General Discussion / Re: Exchange on "The Mark" (Telegram)

« on: April 02, 2022, 05:26:25 PM »

I quoted what I was calling snark in my 3rd post. 

" Is that how others would take it, or is Ellie onto something with her assertion?"

Then I flipped it, and used the same language to Ellie, and you agreed that it was snarky.  Mystery solved.  You don't need to be baffled now.  Talking to me in the third-person comes off snarky, yes. 

Nope, Chris said that you were the one being snarky during the conversation:

I read Rowan's response to James, and either James is delusional, or he doesn't understand the definition of the word 'snark' because if ANYONE was being "snarky," it was James[/b]:

And here, he reiterated the fact that I did not see it as snarky, and neither did he. So you are either lying, or you did not read/understand what Chris said:

He goes on to fervently defend his assertion that Rowan was "snarky." I didn't read Rowan's question that way. Ellie didn't read it that way. No one else spoke up to complain about it. So it sounds like there is something wrong with James, which matches the evidence he has presented with his contentious nature.[/color]

The fact is that now you are continuing to stand firmly in your false accusation against Rowan. You are the only one here who misinterpreted (or twisted) what Rowan said and then decided to falsely accuse him. It was a simple question asking others if they read it the same way as you--I don't know why you can't understand that. But it was apparently so grievous to you that anyone would question you that you are refusing to admit your wrongdoing here--and that reveals the pride of your heart.

You "flipping" the statement back on me did not offend me like you intended it to. I know you were not genuinely seeking an answer from anyone, but I have no issue if any Christians from the church would like to point out if I was wrong in anything I said. You are the only one in this discussion who has demonstrated that you have a problem with anyone opposing what you say. But you only flipped the question on me in order to mock Rowan and I. You were not being genuine. You were being snarky.

38

Introduce Yourself / Re: New Member

« on: April 01, 2022, 05:30:34 PM »

You lied when you said you have given your conversion testimony three times. You lied when you said you did what you agreed to do.

James admitted in his previous post that he willingly chose not to give his "testimony" because he said it was personal, and he claimed he was glad he didn't give it. He knew that he never gave it, so I am not sure why he claimed in his next post that he gave it "three times."

I appreciate the request, but my conversion story is very personal to me and involves some embarrassing details that I don't feel like telling a bunch of strangers just yet.  Once I get to know you a bit better, I will surely elaborate.  So far though, I am glad I kept my conversion story to myself.

That is a huge contradiction and I'm glad that you pointed out the lie. Very odd. At least his true intentions were revealed quickly.

If he was trying to fake having repentance he didn't do a very good job when he basically demanded that we agree with him and then told me to repent for siding with Rowan on the doctrine. I actually didn't even say anything about the doctrine they were talking about, I just went on there to point out the blatant issues with what he was doing because I noticed he immediately falsely accused Rowan after ignoring my question about his testimony which was a red flag.

39

General Discussion / Re: Exchange on "The Mark" (Telegram)

« on: April 01, 2022, 03:06:14 PM »

    " Well if it wasn't snark than it was pride."

It is not prideful to simply ask others how they read something. There was absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. It actually shows humility on his part because he was willing to hear if others read it the same way you did. Rowan was right to question your beliefs because he likely saw your odd introduction as well so he wanted to hear from Christians that he knows, who have willingly given their own testimony of conversion unto Jesus Christ, unlike you who still refuses to do so.

"Rowan mocked me claiming I just came to this conclusion out of my hat.  You defended Rowan mocking me.  Rowan was wrong, and in his pride, was snarky with me.  This is to warn you guys (my brethren) so that you will be vigilant for when that day comes.  This is my testimony of salvation.  That I hear the Word and understand it."

He did not mock you. He asked for others' input. The problem is that you came here expecting everyone to immediately just believe everything you say about doctrine without question, but won't even tell us the story of you being saved. You have demonstrated much more pride here. Typically, those who are born again are very glad and willing to share their testimony when they are asked. You'd think someone claiming to be a Christian would want to share about the day that Christ had mercy on them, don't you think? Unless that day never happened, I cannot fathom a reason why a true Christian would be so unwilling to give details.

You already said here that you believe this is the "wrong crowd" but then you say you want to warn us, your "brethren." We are not brethren and will not accept you as brethren if you do not have a testimony of salvation. It's becoming more clear that you didn't want to fellowship here, you wanted everyone to accept everything you say without question, and anyone who does oppose it, you accuse them of pride and "snark". I believe that I agree with your assessment that this is not the right crowd for you. It would be best for you to simply depart in peace because you are not going to get what you came here for.

40

General Discussion / Re: Exchange on "The Mark" (Telegram)

« on: April 01, 2022, 01:41:58 PM »

     My belief is Christian.  I use only the King James.  I believe in repentance the same way CLE does: Godly sorrow or remorse for wrongdoing against God.  Jesus died on the cross, and rose again the 3rd day.  I wasn't referencing the scripture Rowan posted as what I was calling snark. 

"Is that how others would read it, or is James onto something with his assertion that it refers to the end times?"

^This is what I was calling snark.  I can just leave.  Seems like the wrong crowd for me.

That does not include a testimony of salvation. Anyone can claim to believe those things and still not be born again.

Rowan was just asking for others on the forum to give their input on how they read those passages, that wasn't snarky. But alright--you can leave in peace if you'd like to. Have a good day.