Hello, my name is Vince

[Vince]

I have a wife (Tamra) and two boys ages (Hudson) 10 and (Coleston) 6, and I live in Fort Wayne, IN. I’ve been a believer in Jesus Christ for as long as I can remember. I was raised with Christian values, although a lot of legalism in the denomination I grew up in called the Apostolic Christian Church of Bluffton Indiana.
 
At around 10 years old my mom left that church, which she had been with all her life and started attending another very legalistic church that happened to be much more charismatic. I would even say it was a cult. You can look up Hobart Freeman who was the pastor of Faith Assembly up in Northern Indiana. I attended with her occasionally till I was 16 and then went back into the youth group of the previous church which I had grew up in. There would be a lot to discuss on this subject, but I won't get into all that now.

I’ve been a part of several seeker friendly churches over the years, and some pretty solid bible teaching churches. I think the most influential person that helped me straighten out a lot of doctrine was Dr John MacArthur, who I’ve listened to pretty regularly over the last 11 years. I loved to download entire bible book studies and listen through them while driving to work or whenever I could. I really couldn’t get enough of it. Although over the last year since COVID and many of the political controversies I’ve separated myself from his teaching to an extent.

Over the last few years, I’ve been getting more familiar with citizen journalist, and others who some may consider conspiracy theorists. Some of the news reports I’ve followed are those like the X22 Report, Justinformed Talk, Daniel Lee, Scott McKay, Brian Adams, Code Monkey, Project Veritas, etc. most will report on what are called Q drops and other higher up intel sources. One thing I had noticed is that many of these citizen journalists as well as President Trump were getting censored over the last year on several of the big tech platforms. I really took notice of this, and was able to follow most of them to other channels, but one thing that occurred to me was the question of why were these citizen journalists getting censored and strangely many of the various main stream bible teachers just seemed to be left to themselves? They were not necessarily any threat to anything, but just kept on teaching the bible. It was odd to me. I would think that the ones teaching the bible would be the tip of the spear, or over the target of Satans strongholds, but they were seemingly not even really noticed except by “loyal church goers”.

It made me start digging, and I always wondered why most of these mainstream bible teachers never called out political leaders and their sins, or even pick a side when it comes to who may be running for office. They always seemed so politically correct when it came to these subject matters? This made me think of the 501c3 contract, which I had heard of several years ago as something of a threat to the evangelical church, as well as something to be avoided. So, I searched on it and had found various teaching on the subject. I was particularly drawn to the teaching on creationliberty though. I found it to be thorough and biblically sound.

So, over the last 3 weeks I’ve worked through the series on 501c3, and also discovered the series on marriage which I just finished up today and have found myself halfway through the feminist series as well. Once I find something that rings true, I tend to get on a mission to absorb as much as I can and as quickly as I can. It really never ends though. I love Jesus Christ, so by association I love truth, and because of the Spirit I can usually tell when I’m hearing the truth. I do need the body of Christ though to keep me in check, and I’m exited about this body of believers.

I do hope to get into some discussions on various topics, and look forward to getting some great insights by doing some good ol’ iron sharpening.
Thanks for having me onboard

Vince

[Jeanne]

Hi Vince, I'm glad you found us here! However, before you get too excited about having found like minded believers, I want to make sure you understand what we believe concerning the core Biblical doctrine of salvation. There are MANY people who think they are saved but are not. I'm not at all implying that you are one of these because you really didn't give us enough information to make that call. I believe two of the most important teachings that Chris ever did are these:

Is Repentance Part of Salvation?

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/repent.php

Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell

http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/whymillions.php

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I would encourage you to please read through these and let us know what you think. Feel free to ask any questions as we would be happy to discuss any concerns you might have. In the meantime, welcome, and I, too, look forward to having some good conversations with you.

[Vince]

Thank you Jeanne, I'll have a look at those teachings and get back to you on my thoughts.

[Vince]

Great study on the doctrine of repentance. I appreciated the clarification of repentance being grief and Godly sorrow as opposed to turning. I also appreciate the new found resource I have now in the Webster's Dictionary 1828.

"to sorrow or be pained for sin, as a violation of God's holy law, a dishonor to his character and government, and the foulest ingratitude to a Being of infinite benevolence."

Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

I also gleaned from the study the difference between sorrow of the world vs. Godly sorrow. This was very good to distinguish between the two. I've found myself wondering at times if I'm sorry about a particular wrong because I've disappointed a person (myself included), or because I grieved our Holy Father. I'm praying that my relationship continues to deepen so that offending the Lord always comes before what others may think of me.

2 Corinthians 7:9
Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

I've noticed since I've done the study on 501c3, repentance, and been confirmed on my understanding on tithing and how it is an unbiblical principle I've been able to pick out various comments other preachers make that alert me to their true motives. Speaking of which has anyone researched the preacher Dean Odle (Fire & Grace Church)? My wife and mother-in-law have been following him and seem to think he is right on in his teaching. I on the other hand have some serious concerns.

It's been a blessing to work through these studies. I'm finishing up on the feminisms study and it has been very revealing to me and the influence it has had on the American culture as well as played havoc on current marriages, including my own.

Striving to be one of the few
Vince

[Timothy]

Welcome to the forum Vince, and thanks for coming back with your take on the repentance article.

Great study on the doctrine of repentance. I appreciated the clarification of repentance being grief and Godly sorrow as opposed to turning...
I also gleaned from the study the difference between sorrow of the world vs. Godly sorrow. This was very good to distinguish between the two. I've found myself wondering at times if I'm sorry about a particular wrong because I've disappointed a person (myself included), or because I grieved our Holy Father. I'm praying that my relationship continues to deepen so that offending the Lord always comes before what others may think of me.

I've read through your introduction and response to Jeanne and I did not see where you ever claimed to be born again in Christ. The only thing you said in your introduction was that you've been a believer since you could remember. That doesn't give us any details of your conversion. Do you have a salvation testimony? When, or were you ever, born again?

John 3:3 - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[creationliberty]

I had the same concerns as Tim when I read your response. As much as you claimed to understand repentance and the Gospel, your last line told me something completely different:
"Striving to be one of the few"

That indicates to me that you do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ because you believe that in order to be one of the "few" who find the way to eternal life, that you have to "strive" to get there. Such a thing cannot be accomplished by your works; you can't claw your own way into heaven.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
-Rom 11:6

You cannot "strive" your way to salvation and eternal life, and that sounds like you have the "churchgoer" beliefs of the church buildings you grew up attending. You went from skipping over that subject to talking about Q drops, and I see that you went straight from your last response over to the Insurrection thread, and that was one of my concerns before I even started that thread. I wondered if it was going to be a problem later. We've had people jump on to this forum and kind of blow past the salvation part so they can start discussing more worldly matters. Frankly, if that thread is going to be a distraction from the basis of the Gospel, I'll delete the whole thing, or at least move it to the private section of our forum; I have no problem doing that.

This subject is far more important, and I can agree with Jeanne's post too. No one is just born into salvation. That's why Jesus said you have to be born again. People CAN be born into being a churchgoer, but that's a different matter entirely. The problem is that when they're born into being a churchgoer, they think they have nothing to be sorrowful for (except worldly things), and that comes back to what Jesus said in Revelation:
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
-Rev 3:17

I’ve been a believer in Jesus Christ for as long as I can remember.
I was raised with Christian values,
Statements like that do not give any indication of what Jesus did for a sinner to save him. Saved from what? You gave us nothing. Therefore, from the perspective of those who have been saved, this is not a "testimony" of anything except your "churchianity" experiences. I cannot even imagine someone approaching the judgment seat of God and when they have to give an account, they say, "Well, I’ve been a believer in Jesus Christ for as long as I can remember. I was raised with Christian values, and I made sure to faithfully listen to the X22 Report." -- and then they think God's going to say, "Well done my good and faithful servant, you went to church buildings and listened to podcasts! You did it!" I really don't get why people have that mentality other than the fact that they do not understand what Jesus taught about repentance and faith, and what those things mean.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
-Mat 13:23
False Converts vs Eternal Security

There was nothing in your posts that remotely involved sin, the law, guilt of anything, nor being saved from those things, and the only time you mentioned repentance (i.e. godly sorrow of sin) was because someone else asked you about it. Then, in your response, there was really nothing about your personal testimony of those things. You basically said, "Great study, I appreciate it. I was wondering about some aspects of that, and so I'll keep praying for understanding." -- and then you just moved on from there to start talking about some other preacher and your marriage.

It's like these things are just blowing right past you without actually piercing the mind and heart.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-Heb 4:12

Let me try to explain this a different way, and then perhaps you'll understand our perspective a little better:

Let's suppose you were walking down the street and did not notice a truck speeding up behind you, and right before it struck you, a man jumped out and pushed you out of the way. The truck hit the man and killed him instantly, but the man saved your life. In that particular moment, what is your reaction? When you approach the man who was hit by the truck, the man that saved your life, and you're looking at his bloody corpse, what is your reaction?

Would your reaction be to say, "I'll strive to do better." Would your reaction be to casually say, "Hmm, that's very interesting." Or, would your reaction be grief? We have read and listened to many testimonies, and I can tell you, I'm seeing nothing in your posts that indicate to me that you have a "relationship" with God.

Would you entertain the thought that you do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ, or is that a foregone conclusion in your mind? I'm not going to push the matter with you if that's what you want to believe; I'll just bid you a good day and move on. However, the problem is that men like John MacArthur (who is a false preacher I want to do a "Wolves in Costume" article on) puts the idea in peoples' minds that if they "love Jesus," they're salvation is secure, treating grace like it's a free sample at a grocery store (as opposed to a selective gift), and they have no understanding of what it means to be converted because John MacArthur himself was never converted. Essentially, it's churchgoers convincing other churchgoers that they're all faithful servants of God, without any concern of what it means to be saved.

That's what I'm seeing. I was waiting for others here to chime in first before I said anything, but as you can see, not very many people have responded. There is a long-standing habit of the Christians here that if they are confused or unsure about what a person says when they come here, they stay silent, and typically, it's because they do not know what to say or how to approach that person. As you can see, there are a lot of people here confused by your introduction post, or they would have said something already.

I'm not sure what else to say, so I'll stop there. All I can say is that when I'm reading your posts, I get the impression of a man who is a very experienced churchgoer, but I do not get the impression of someone who has been born again in Jesus Christ.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
-Mat 7:21-23
Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell

[Vince]

I had the same concerns as Tim when I read your response. As much as you claimed to understand repentance and the Gospel, your last line told me something completely different:
"Striving to be one of the few"

I admit my statement of “Striving to be one of the few” was a quick attempt at a final quip, but ultimately was a cheesy wrap up line like “In Christian love”, “In the grip of grace”, or “May grace and blessings be in your path” something I’ve learned well in all my church years. I really meant it in the same vein as Paul spoke of in 1Cor 9:24-27 and not a working for salvation, but my sanctification. Sorry about that.

That indicates to me that you do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ because you believe that in order to be one of the "few" who find the way to eternal life, that you have to "strive" to get there. Such a thing cannot be accomplished by your works; you can't claw your own way into heaven.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
-Rom 11:6

You cannot "strive" your way to salvation and eternal life, and that sounds like you have the "churchgoer" beliefs of the church buildings you grew up attending. You went from skipping over that subject to talking about Q drops, and I see that you went straight from your last response over to the Insurrection thread, and that was one of my concerns before I even started that thread. I wondered if it was going to be a problem later. We've had people jump on to this forum and kind of blow past the salvation part so they can start discussing more worldly matters. Frankly, if that thread is going to be a distraction from the basis of the Gospel, I'll delete the whole thing, or at least move it to the private section of our forum; I have no problem doing that.

I wouldn’t worry about the Insurrection thread too much. It’s not a distraction, just a place to disperse information. If a person gets distracted by that, they be distracted by other things as well. I basically use citizen journalist as a source of news as opposed to the mainstream media, which I believe to be thoroughly corrupt. Basically Gods Word first and then we can know better how to process other incoming information.

This subject is far more important, and I can agree with Jeanne's post too. No one is just born into salvation. That's why Jesus said you have to be born again. People CAN be born into being a churchgoer, but that's a different matter entirely. The problem is that when they're born into being a churchgoer, they think they have nothing to be sorrowful for (except worldly things), and that comes back to what Jesus said in Revelation:
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
-Rev 3:17

One thing I’ve learned in all my years of church going is how to be a nice guy, somehow in my past I got Christianity mixed with ideas from the positive thinking philosophies like “How to win friends and influence People” I think about 11 or 12 years ago I really got sick of the empty promises this world had to offer and began to realize that somehow mixing Christianity with the pursuit of wealth and worldly comfort was completely ridiculous. Heb 13:5-6

One of my favorite interactions that Christ has in scripture is when he was challenging the rich young ruler in Matt 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18. Most pastors would consider landing someone like that kid as a big score, but Christ knew his heart and wasn’t going to bring him onboard until the corruption was challenged. Ultimately the kid thought Christ could really use Him in his mission and didn’t realize it was he that needed Christ. Jesus sent him packing. I don’t want to be that rich young ruler, it’s my desire to follow Christ and the things of this world be damned. I know I could be speaking from a naïve mindset like Peter was in Matt 26:35, but ultimately the Holy Spirit brought him through that and he did die for Christ.

I take a lot of comfort in the testimony of the disciples. They followed Jesus for much different reasons when He first called them than they did a short 3 or so years after. I don’t really recall when exactly each of them had a personal conversion experience, but more of a conversion process. I think Peter had to repent many times as well as the others during their walk with Christ. As for me I wake up many morning and the thoughts of wrong actions in the past and my short sightedness have grieved me were I reach out to God in prayer with sorrow and regret. I do replace those feeling with thankfulness to what He is doing in my life and other and also remind myself of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

I’ve been a believer in Jesus Christ for as long as I can remember.
I was raised with Christian values,
Statements like that do not give any indication of what Jesus did for a sinner to save him. Saved from what? You gave us nothing. Therefore, from the perspective of those who have been saved, this is not a "testimony" of anything except your "churchianity" experiences. I cannot even imagine someone approaching the judgment seat of God and when they have to give an account, they say, "Well, I’ve been a believer in Jesus Christ for as long as I can remember. I was raised with Christian values, and I made sure to faithfully listen to the X22 Report." -- and then they think God's going to say, "Well done my good and faithful servant, you went to church buildings and listened to podcasts! You did it!" I really don't get why people have that mentality other than the fact that they do not understand what Jesus taught about repentance and faith, and what those things mean.

To be clearer when I say I've been a believer in Jesus Christ for as long as I can remember...It’s just that I accepted early on in childhood even before the age of accountability that there was a God and a Devil, and I knew who’s side I wanted to be on. Childlike as it is, I knew I wanted to be like Jesus and not like Satan. Of course, this belief developed and matured over the years in spite of wrong doctrine, and I made many mistakes and was wrapped up in various sins growing up, but I can look back and see Gods grace at work. I worked through the grief of my sins and how they have offended our Father and still work through that grief and sorrow like the wretched "publican like" man that I am. There’s no reason at all that I couldn’t have ended up in a similar situation as some of the young men you describe in your feminism teaching, but it didn’t go that way for me, which I’m thankful, but that doesn’t mean the walk has been any easier.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
-Mat 13:23
False Converts vs Eternal Security

This is one of the reasons I wanted to be a part of a forum like this. I want to be cultivated in the truth with other like minded believers so that I can bear true fruit. Not just church goer type fruit, but the real deal.


There was nothing in your posts that remotely involved sin, the law, guilt of anything, nor being saved from those things, and the only time you mentioned repentance (i.e. godly sorrow of sin) was because someone else asked you about it. Then, in your response, there was really nothing about your personal testimony of those things. You basically said, "Great study, I appreciate it. I was wondering about some aspects of that, and so I'll keep praying for understanding." -- and then you just moved on from there to start talking about some other preacher and your marriage.

It's like these things are just blowing right past you without actually piercing the mind and heart.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-Heb 4:12

Let me try to explain this a different way, and then perhaps you'll understand our perspective a little better:

Let's suppose you were walking down the street and did not notice a truck speeding up behind you, and right before it struck you, a man jumped out and pushed you out of the way. The truck hit the man and killed him instantly, but the man saved your life. In that particular moment, what is your reaction? When you approach the man who was hit by the truck, the man that saved your life, and you're looking at his bloody corpse, what is your reaction?

Would your reaction be to say, "I'll strive to do better." Would your reaction be to casually say, "Hmm, that's very interesting." Or, would your reaction be grief? We have read and listened to many testimonies, and I can tell you, I'm seeing nothing in your posts that indicate to me that you have a "relationship" with God.

Would you entertain the thought that you do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ, or is that a foregone conclusion in your mind? I'm not going to push the matter with you if that's what you want to believe; I'll just bid you a good day and move on. However, the problem is that men like John MacArthur (who is a false preacher I want to do a "Wolves in Costume" article on) puts the idea in peoples' minds that if they "love Jesus," they're salvation is secure, treating grace like it's a free sample at a grocery store (as opposed to a selective gift), and they have no understanding of what it means to be converted because John MacArthur himself was never converted. Essentially, it's churchgoers convincing other churchgoers that they're all faithful servants of God, without any concern of what it means to be saved.

That's what I'm seeing. I was waiting for others here to chime in first before I said anything, but as you can see, not very many people have responded. There is a long-standing habit of the Christians here that if they are confused or unsure about what a person says when they come here, they stay silent, and typically, it's because they do not know what to say or how to approach that person. As you can see, there are a lot of people here confused by your introduction post, or they would have said something already.

I'm not sure what else to say, so I'll stop there. All I can say is that when I'm reading your posts, I get the impression of a man who is a very experienced churchgoer, but I do not get the impression of someone who has been born again in Jesus Christ.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
-Mat 7:21-23
Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to Hell

I appreciate the vetting, and I attempt to be as open and as honest as I can. I think I’m in good company with others in this forum who don’t want to hear Christ say “I never knew you” and I think scripture clearly points to the fact that we need to humble ourselves before Christ with a repentant heart. His Word says He is faithful to forgive.

I also appreciate your patience as I am growing to know and understand you guys better as well. You’re at a bit of a disadvantage since you don’t have 100+ hours of my Bible teaching that you can groom through to understand my thoughts. You’ll have to accept my feeble writing skills for now.

<insert cheesy Christian letter closing here>
Vince

[Ellie]

Hi Vince,

I appreciate you coming back and posting again. I want to mention some things I noticed about what you said.

I appreciate the vetting, and I attempt to be as open and as honest as I can.

I hope that if this statement is true, that you will be open to answering and truly considering what I, and others here might have to say in response to you. Something that stood out to me that I wanted to address about your post, was that you said this:

As for me I wake up many morning and the thoughts of wrong actions in the past and my short sightedness have grieved me were I reach out to God in prayer with sorrow and regret. I do replace those feeling with thankfulness to what He is doing in my life and other and also remind myself of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

I believe that you were claiming that you were replacing the grief of repentance with thankfulness, based off what you wrote. I am wary of that because I, and I think others here will agree (anyone can correct me if I am wrong), would never think to replace repentance with anything. The grief and sorrow of repentance toward God is something that born again Christians are naturally thankful for in itself, because upon salvation, it opened our ability to even comprehend why we needed Christ's shed blood for our salvation in the first place (thus, allowing us to come to a saving faith in Him). The grief of repentance is not something to throw off or replace. Paul explains to the Corinthians that repentance is not something to be repented of (sorry for) because it is what brings salvation:

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. - 2 Corinthians 7:10

True repentance is not something to be sorry for or to put off in any way. But sorrow for sin is grievous to those who have not come to repentance and saving faith in Christ because they reject it, and consequently reject God's grace. We who have a repentant heart, are thankful to God for His salvation and mercy because we understand it. However, I can understand the desire to put off worldly sorrow and replace it with something else. Before I was saved, any serious thought of my sin and judgement and I wanted to immediately think of the "love of Jesus" and "God's grace," while never having understood the true love of Christ, or having experienced God's saving grace until I was born again.

Another concern I have is your response to Chris in the rest of this part of your last post:

This subject is far more important, and I can agree with Jeanne's post too. No one is just born into salvation. That's why Jesus said you have to be born again. People CAN be born into being a churchgoer, but that's a different matter entirely. The problem is that when they're born into being a churchgoer, they think they have nothing to be sorrowful for (except worldly things), and that comes back to what Jesus said in Revelation:
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
-Rev 3:17

One thing I’ve learned in all my years of church going is how to be a nice guy, somehow in my past I got Christianity mixed with ideas from the positive thinking philosophies like “How to win friends and influence People” I think about 11 or 12 years ago I really got sick of the empty promises this world had to offer and began to realize that somehow mixing Christianity with the pursuit of wealth and worldly comfort was completely ridiculous. Heb 13:5-6

One of my favorite interactions that Christ has in scripture is when he was challenging the rich young ruler in Matt 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18. Most pastors would consider landing someone like that kid as a big score, but Christ knew his heart and wasn’t going to bring him onboard until the corruption was challenged. Ultimately the kid thought Christ could really use Him in his mission and didn’t realize it was he that needed Christ. Jesus sent him packing. I don’t want to be that rich young ruler, it’s my desire to follow Christ and the things of this world be damned. I know I could be speaking from a naïve mindset like Peter was in Matt 26:35, but ultimately the Holy Spirit brought him through that and he did die for Christ.

I take a lot of comfort in the testimony of the disciples. They followed Jesus for much different reasons when He first called them than they did a short 3 or so years after. I don’t really recall when exactly each of them had a personal conversion experience, but more of a conversion process. I think Peter had to repent many times as well as the others during their walk with Christ. As for me I wake up many morning and the thoughts of wrong actions in the past and my short sightedness have grieved me were I reach out to God in prayer with sorrow and regret. I do replace those feeling with thankfulness to what He is doing in my life and other and also remind myself of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

You did not really address what he said. The point is that you must be born again, and from the sounds of your post, you didn't give any indication of a testimony of salvation. Christians do repent over and over again after being born again, but that doesn't mean that they are going through a "conversion process," as you put it. Christ doesn't only partially convert someone. You are either saved or you are not. You either have the Holy Spirit indwelling you, or you do not. You either have repented and believed in Christ, or you have not.

What you have said about repentance and conversion are very concerning to me and raise red flags because it indicates that you do not have the testimony of salvation that we are asking you for. I am glad that you have come here and posted because you will not hear the truth from most people, and we are only "vetting" you because it is a way for the church to be protected, and also because it gives an opportunity for you to hear the truth that you must be born again through repentance toward God and faith in Christ. So I hope you will consider these things. Also, because you said you want to be open and honest, can you answer these questions that Chris and Tim asked?

Would you entertain the thought that you do not have a relationship with Jesus Christ, or is that a foregone conclusion in your mind?

Do you have a salvation testimony? When, or were you ever, born again?

[Timothy]

I admit my statement of “Striving to be one of the few” was a quick attempt at a final quip...I really meant it in the same vein as Paul spoke of in 1Cor 9:24-27 and not a working for salvation, but my sanctification.

But when you actually look at the context of 1 Corinthians 9, it doesn't say anything about being "one of the few." So there is no way for anyone to associate what you said with that chapter. It doesn't make sense. Had you said something relevant to that chapter we would have made the connection, but when I read that line in your post, I instantly thought of Matthew 7:14

Matthew 7:14 - Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So when you say that you are "striving to be one of the few", that means that you are relying on your works to get into heaven. It simply can't be done that way. The problem is not that what you said was "cheesy". It's just inaccurate and shows to us that you believe in something other than the gospel and do not understand the gospel. Trying to relate it somehow to 1 Corinthians just doesn't make any sense.

It's fine if you just wrote something incorrectly because you didn't understand something, but that needs to be corrected so that new Christians don't end up spreading false doctrine because of it.

I wouldn’t worry about the Insurrection thread too much. It’s not a distraction, just a place to disperse information. If a person gets distracted by that, they be distracted by other things as well. I basically use citizen journalist as a source of news as opposed to the mainstream media, which I believe to be thoroughly corrupt. Basically Gods Word first and then we can know better how to process other incoming information.

The problem I see with this is that you're not addressing what Chris said about the gospel. That's the important thing we are trying to talk to you about that you're ignoring. The point about bringing up the Insurrection thread is that we don't want people to join the forum expecting us to believe they are a Christian because they simply said they are and go on talking about other things. We look for their testimony of being born again in the Lord Jesus Christ first before moving on and so far you haven't really shown that to us. All we have so far is that you've "been a believer since you can remember," and that you "strive to be one of the few." Just because you say you believe, does not make you a Christian.

Jesus actually addressed this in John 8 when speaking to Jews that believed on him. They believed, and yet, turned around to stone him at the end of the chapter.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

The Jews here that did not continue in His words was not because they lacked works (salvation is not by works). It was because they lacked repentance (godly sorrow) thinking that they were free simply because they were descendants of Abraham not understanding their sin before God. They did not have the repentance that the prodigal son had saying that he was not worthy to be called his father's son.

Luke 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

The Jews thought they were entitled for simply being Jews and because they believed. Jesus pointed out to them that they were the servants of sin and they didn't like that fact. This part, they didn't want to consider or think about.

Having said that, something you say later in your response was concerning to me when I read it. Ellie has already pointed it out but we will get to that here shortly.

This subject is far more important, and I can agree with Jeanne's post too. No one is just born into salvation. That's why Jesus said you have to be born again. People CAN be born into being a churchgoer, but that's a different matter entirely. The problem is that when they're born into being a churchgoer, they think they have nothing to be sorrowful for (except worldly things), and that comes back to what Jesus said in Revelation:
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
-Rev 3:17

One thing I’ve learned in all my years of church going is how to be a nice guy

Let's stop right here for a second. Why is it that in response to talking about the importance of being born again, you start talking about how you've learned to be a "nice guy." Do you not see the clear problem with this and why we concluded that you rely on your works for salvation? What you did was instantly start talking about your works instead of talking about repentance towards God and faith in Jesus Christ.

somehow in my past I got Christianity mixed with ideas from the positive thinking philosophies like “How to win friends and influence People” I think about 11 or 12 years ago I really got sick of the empty promises this world had to offer and began to realize that somehow mixing Christianity with the pursuit of wealth and worldly comfort was completely ridiculous. Heb 13:5-6

It's not like you even clarified anything in this paragraph because you start talking about "positive thinking philosophies" which has nothing to do with anything any of us are trying to tell you.

One of my favorite interactions that Christ has in scripture is when he was challenging the rich young ruler in Matt 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18. Most pastors would consider landing someone like that kid as a big score, but Christ knew his heart and wasn’t going to bring him onboard until the corruption was challenged. Ultimately the kid thought Christ could really use Him in his mission and didn’t realize it was he that needed Christ. Jesus sent him packing. I don’t want to be that rich young ruler, it’s my desire to follow Christ and the things of this world be damned. I know I could be speaking from a naïve mindset like Peter was in Matt 26:35, but ultimately the Holy Spirit brought him through that and he did die for Christ.

Again, you're not addressing anything we've said. Your avoiding having to talk about your testimony by bringing up other random subjects. Also, you're not understanding what you are talking about in Matthew 19. The rich man didn't go to Jesus because he thought that Jesus could use his help. He came to Jesus asking how to have eternal life, to which Jesus pointed out his sin.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This had nothing to do with the man thinking he could be useful to Jesus in some way. I imagine you must have gotten that from some preacher who didn't know what he was talking about in one of the churches you've attended in the past.

I take a lot of comfort in the testimony of the disciples. They followed Jesus for much different reasons when He first called them than they did a short 3 or so years after. I don’t really recall when exactly each of them had a personal conversion experience, but more of a conversion process. I think Peter had to repent many times as well as the others during their walk with Christ.

I agree with what Ellie has pointed out about you calling it a "conversion process." Either you are a Christian, or you aren't. You can't ride the fence with salvation.

Revelation 3:15 - I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Making conversion a process implies you have to work for your salvation which lines up with your statement that you are "striving to be one of the few." Also, you are once again not addressing anything we have said. It is strange that, instead of talking about your own testimony, you change the subject to talk about the disciples. You start out diverting the attention to someone else. My question is, why are you avoiding talking about your own testimony so far? Why do you have to talk about other things in response to our concerns about your salvation?

As for me I wake up many morning and the thoughts of wrong actions in the past and my short sightedness have grieved me were I reach out to God in prayer with sorrow and regret. I do replace those feeling with thankfulness to what He is doing in my life and other and also remind myself of Paul’s words in Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.

Remember what I said about the Jews not wanting to think about their sin earlier? It is strange to me that, instead of embracing the sorrow that you have over sin, you have to "replace the feeling with thankfulness" to make you feel better. Ellie and I were both concerned about this when we read it together earlier. I know that born again Christians are thankful for what Christ has done to save them, but they don't run away from the repentance they have. They embrace it and direct that repentance towards God in humility knowing that their sin, no matter what it is, is a direct offense towards God. Look at how David prayed to God after having committing grevious sins in Psalm 51.

Psalm 51:1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

David didn't "replace" his repentance for thankfulness. He went to God broken and contrite and prayed for His mercy. That's not what you've done based on what I'm reading. Not only that, but what about the work that Jesus Christ did on your behalf shedding His blood for your sins? I haven't seen you even mention that as of yet. You talk about what God "is doing in my life" but not what He has done for your life and soul! This is clear gospel that is missing from your testimony. Why is it that after so many years of "believing in Jesus" that you completely forget His sacrifice unless you never had that understanding to begin with?

I have listened to many people who claim to be a Christian say that they are a sinner or that they have sinned, but they always seem to talk about it so generally without giving any specific sins they have committed. And they talk about it almost dully like it's just a thing that everyone has done and seem to like to change the focus from sin to something else that makes them feel good like some positive message. We're not asking that you give specific details of any sin you've done, but from the patterns I've seen from born again Christians they usually talk about specific sins they have done whether it's lying, fornication, pornography, drunkenness, idolatry etc. And like what Paul explained about godly sorrow in 2 Corinthians 7:11, they usually show some degree of passion or humility about when they got saved because of the repentance.

2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

The godly sorrow (which is repentance towards God) incites the passion he described in verse 11, and born again Christians usually show this to some extent in their salvation testimonies whether they realize it or not. But from what I've read from you, I haven't seen the same thing. It seems like, to you, your sin is just something you think about sometimes but you have to replace it with something else to get it out of your mind.

I just looked up the testimony of Heather who is one of the members of the church and found this:

"Throughout my walk since that day at 13 years old.. It has been a rollercoaster if emotions. I lived on my emotions. Up until 1 month ago I was listening to Chris Johnson's audio on Repentance and I honestly can not tell you how I came upon CLE. It just came to me and Glory to Jesus Christ. I listened intently to the message and when I realized the true meaning of repentance it was when I completely came undone right there on my couch when nobody was around. Broken and upset that I thought I was a Christian all these years. Bawling and hurt that I had been deceived for so long and thought my works was my salvation and realized just how truly lost I was. I never want to lose my broken heart for my sinful nature. I never want to lose Him."
http://www.creationliberty.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=b5198f226ce954e5c7554b90630095f7&topic=1137.msg9189#msg9189

In Heather's testimony, I can clearly see the "clearing of herself," the "indignation" she had for the deception she was subjected to all those years and the "vehement desire" to "never lose my broken heart for my sinful nature." She has that passion because of how profound it is to her that she finally heard the word of God and understood it. But I don't see this same passion in what little you have said in your testimony.

Sure, you talked about having grief, sorrow and regret but why is it that you have to "replace those feelings with thankfulness" instead of embracing it like David did, or the Corinthians, or like Heather did when she got saved? I'm not saying that the sorrow you have had is wrong or that you don't have it, but we are missing the evidence of that in your conversation with us.

To be clearer when I say I've been a believer in Jesus Christ for as long as I can remember...It’s just that I accepted early on in childhood even before the age of accountability that there was a God and a Devil, and I knew who’s side I wanted to be on. Childlike as it is, I knew I wanted to be like Jesus and not like Satan. Of course, this belief developed and matured over the years in spite of wrong doctrine, and I made many mistakes and was wrapped up in various sins growing up, but I can look back and see Gods grace at work. I worked through the grief of my sins and how they have offended our Father and still work through that grief and sorrow like the wretched "publican like" man that I am. There’s no reason at all that I couldn’t have ended up in a similar situation as some of the young men you describe in your feminism teaching, but it didn’t go that way for me, which I’m thankful, but that doesn’t mean the walk has been any easier.

Why is it that you have to "work through the grief" and what exactly do you mean by it? And how is "working through the grief" relevant to the feminism article in any way? What does it matter how "easy your walk" is if salvation is by repentance and faith? You keep talking about things like this as if it has something to do with salvation. Even with this explanation of what you meant when you said you've been a believer in Jesus since you can remember, it still is not showing us how, or if, you have ever been born again.

You’re at a bit of a disadvantage since you don’t have 100+ hours of my Bible teaching that you can groom through to understand my thoughts. You’ll have to accept my feeble writing skills for now.

Are you saying that you have over 100 hours of Bible teachings you've done?

It's not about understanding your thoughts. We want to simply know if you have ever been born again?

[Vince]

It's not about understanding your thoughts. We want to simply know if you have ever been born again?

My initial response as I consider this is that I have not been born again as being described here, but I want to be.

Thank you for your thoughts

Vince

[Timothy]

If you want to be born again, then you must understand that you have sinned against God. If you've ever told a lie, stolen anything, looked at someout with lust, then you are guilty of God's laws and have committed an offence against God.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

The Bible says that everything you have ever said or done will be brought before everyone on judgement day.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:27

For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.
Mark 4:22

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Matthew 12:36

You, like everyone else here has fallen short and deserve an eternity in hell because of sin, but the reason Jesus Christ died on the cross was to pay for all our sins. Past, present and future. Like we said before, you are either saved or your not because Jesus paid for all of it, not just a little at a time.

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:10-12

It says that we are all unprofitable and that none are righteous, so being nice or any work that we do cannot justify our sinful state.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

All it takes to avoid having to suffer the punishment of hell is to do as Paul taught all men. To repent towards God (have godly sorrow of your wrongdoing) and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He died for your sins. God will then send his Holy Spirit to dwell within you and you become born again through the Spirit into God's heavenly family. The Holy Spirit dwelling in you quickens (makes alive) your spirit and this is what it means to be born again. But it comes through repentance and faith in Christ.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 20:21

Just like the prodigal son came to his father in the humility of repentance saying that he was not worthy to be a son, that is the same repentance that God looks for in anybody that comes to Him. The same for how David came to God in repentance in Psalm 51 that I quoted earlier. Then simply believe on Jesus Christ and that He died for your sin to free you from the punishment of hell.

[Vince]

Just like the prodigal son came to his father in the humility of repentance saying that he was not worthy to be a son, that is the same repentance that God looks for in anybody that comes to Him. The same for how David came to God in repentance in Psalm 51 that I quoted earlier. Then simply believe on Jesus Christ and that He died for your sin to free you from the punishment of hell.

As I consider this I believe that I am born again as being described here. As I've read the story of the prodigal son, and also how David came to God in Psalm 51 I see this as my hearts attitude towards the Lord.

Thank you

Vince

[Timothy]

Then can you tell us about how you came to repentance and faith? That would be your testimony.

[Vince]

Yes, right about the age of 13 I made my public confession of faith in what Jesus has done for me on the cross and committed my life to follow Him, and was baptized.

[Vince]

From my previous post I mentioned that my Mom had left the church she had grown up in, and I'll also mention my dad grew up in as well as their parents, grandparents and ggparents, etc. and started attending a church up around Syracuse, IN when I was around 10.

Even though as I look back now there was considerable error in some of the doctrines in the church my mom started attending, they were also pretty right on in the error in celebrating the pagan holiday's we have today e.g. Easter, Halloween, Christmas, and probably the others. The bible teacher was educated and previously a professor at Grace Seminary in Warsaw, IN. I see him as a man that was very well studied in scripture, and knew how to use it to influence less knowledgeable laypeople in the church. That being said it still was the word of God being read and taught, which is what I ultimately heard and was drawn to.

At 13 I was aware of what sin was, and it's hold on my life. I also knew that I was ultimately powerless in getting it out of my life, and was sorry that it was in my life and really had no desire to justify it or have it in my life. I knew that God was the source of life and that he had created this world as good, and we had fallen from that, and our sins were against Him and the laws he has established in his word.

I know that if I wanted to be in a right relationship with him I needed to embrace what his son had done on the cross in taking on my sins, which I hated and was sorry for. Like Chris's analogy of the man pushing me out of the way of a bus and being hit himself instead of me.

So, all that I've mentioned before is really a testimony of the sanctification process God has been taking me through, which included being baptized a second time in the Church I went back to at age 16 because they would not recognize any other baptism. Weird, I know, but I was a product of how I was taught, and still am.

[Timothy]

Ok. So you say that you got saved at a young age. There are a few people in the church here who have.

So was the Bible teacher you're talking about from the place you were going to before Hobart Freeman that you mentioned earlier, or is it the same guy?

[Vince]

Yes, Hobart Freeman was the bible teacher I was referring to. I was listening to his teaching from age 10 to around 16.

[Vince]

Couple things that hit me on your post Chris...

However, the problem is that men like John MacArthur (who is a false preacher I want to do a "Wolves in Costume" article on) puts the idea in peoples' minds that if they "love Jesus," they're salvation is secure, treating grace like it's a free sample at a grocery store (as opposed to a selective gift), and they have no understanding of what it means to be converted

I've listened to a lot of MacArthur's teaching and I've not heard him water down salvation like how your putting it here. I'm not saying this to oppose you, but MacArthur clearly defines salvation as accepting Jesus as Lord of your life and explains the parable of the sowers very clearly in his book the Gospel According to Jesus. Are you saying that he teaches that you can simply say "I love Jesus" and your salvation is secure?

because John MacArthur himself was never converted. Essentially, it's churchgoers convincing other churchgoers that they're all faithful servants of God, without any concern of what it means to be saved.

Over the last year or so I've began to start seeing John MacArthur as some sort of controlled opposition of the enemy. Kind of like Alex Jones is to mainstream news media. He say's a lot of compelling and true things, but yet you see certain compromises  and things that they say that make you question how real they are.

I'll say that I agree with your teaching on repentance, and that salvation is a result of grief and Godly sorrow, and without that there can't be any humility of heart that you even need to be saved. I recently reviewed an article from MacArthur on "Conversion: The Experience of Salvation" and your correct he does not say anything about grief or sorrow at all, but instead focuses on Conversion and how the change is more of transition from error to truth. He does however mention that a saved person is converted from sin to virtue, but grief and sorrow to God is not mentioned on how a person would be moved into the conversion process.

link to article https://blog.tms.edu/conversion-the-experience-of-salvation

All in all I think your assessment of MacArthur may be correct, and am still working through some of his various teachings. I do think however his teaching is a bit more sound that simplifying it down to a Billy Graham type teaching and will probably take some care on how you approach the expose of him once you find the time to do it.

Additional note: My wife actually thinks he is associated with the Free Masons and she mentions that one of the highest honors of the higher masons is to actually be a bible teacher in a church. In this way they can lace in the leaven. Very Santanic don't you think?

I just find it interesting that he would actually be a Free Mason and denounces it so forcefully. He also has denounced Catholicism as well has charismatics, and heath wealth teachers. Again this could all be controlled opposition.

[Timothy]

“I'm not saying this to oppose you, but MacArthur clearly defines salvation as accepting Jesus as Lord of your life and explains the parable of the sowers very clearly in his book the Gospel According to Jesus.”

Then MacArthur is teaching a false gospel. “Accepting Jesus” to be saved is found nowhere in the Bible. I’ve never listened to MacArthur, but I can already see that what Chris said is accurate. Teaching people to “accept Jesus” to be saved gives them the idea that if you “love Jesus” or “have good feelings” about Jesus, then you are born again because if you have those feelings, then you have accepted Him. That is a false gospel. Go back to the example of the Jews in John 8. For a short time, they “accepted” Jesus, but they lacked repentance and turned to stone Him.

Vince, I’ve given you the gospel. If you claim to have believed the true gospel, why is it that you are defending a man that teaches a false one? I need to be straight with you. Just because I stopped pushing for you to give your testimony does not mean that I believe that you are born again in Christ. The only point that you “seemed” to have given a sound testimony was after I gave you the answer as what to say. The fact that we had to keep asking and that you are now defending MacArthur’s false gospel tells me that you still do not understand the true gospel. This shouldn’t be a difficult thing since you claim to be a Christian for so many years.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Matthew 23:23

You started off making excuses for your phrase “Striving to be one of the few.” Then when I further addressed you on it, you completely ignored it. There was no repentance for you having said such an error. There was no repentance after correcting you on the story of the rich man in Matthew 19 or about you claiming conversion is a “process.” All these things you just ignored and acted like it isn’t an issue. It doesn’t seem to bother you at all that you said those things. The reason I’m bringing this up is that it shows your lack of repentance. This, along with other things shows that you still do not understand the true gospel and are holding onto a different one.

When I last asked you to tell us how you came to repentance and faith, you responded with another false gospel:

“Yes, right about the age of 13 I made my public confession of faith in what Jesus has done for me on the cross and committed my life to follow Him, and was baptized.”

When someone commits to something, that means they are going to do something. In the context of salvation, you are saying that you committed your life to do works for Jesus to be saved. This is a works salvation and it goes along with your phrase “striving to be one of the few.”

Also, many people have made a “public confession” but are not Christian.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21

It was only after about an hour that you got no response, you changed your answer to better fit the gospel I gave you. I should not have let that go by. But when you start to defend false gospels, then something has to be said.

[Vince]

Then MacArthur is teaching a false gospel. “Accepting Jesus” to be saved is found nowhere in the Bible. I’ve never listened to MacArthur, but I can already see that what Chris said is accurate. Teaching people to “accept Jesus” to be saved gives them the idea that if you “love Jesus” or “have good feelings” about Jesus, then you are born again because if you have those feelings, then you have accepted Him. That is a false gospel. Go back to the example of the Jews in John 8. For a short time, they “accepted” Jesus, but they lacked repentance and turned to stone Him.

Timothy, we may be missing each other here. I'm not defending MacArthur, because I agree that repentance is grief and Godly sorrow, and the second half of my post I explained that I have found in one of his articles that he did not mention anything about this.

The objective of my post is that even though I believe MacArthur has salvation wrong he does go a bit further than just saying "I love Jesus" and then your saved. Although still in error if you I were to write and expose on MacArthur I would want to explain where he was right and then expose the error as well.

You started off making excuses for your phrase “Striving to be one of the few.” Then when I further addressed you on it, you completely ignored it. There was no repentance for you having said such an error.

I did apologize for the silly quip. It was a mistake and I repent for the error.

There was no repentance after correcting you on the story of the rich man in Matthew 19 or about you claiming conversion is a “process.”

I agree that salvation is a specific point in time, which I neglected to point out in my initial testimony, and I'm sorry for that misstep. My understanding of conversion is then after repentance you turn. Then my understanding is after conversion you begin the sanctification process. Please correct me where I might be wrong in this understanding. It is important that I get the correct way to explain it to others in the future.

I think I may put more emphasis on the sanctification process of my walk since that is a lot of Christians will spend most of their time in there walk, not all though. Some may repent in Godly sorrow and life snuffed immediately or soon after.

It was only after about an hour that you got no response, you changed your answer to better fit the gospel I gave you. I should not have let that go by. But when you start to defend false gospels, then something has to be said.

Yes, I did want to elaborate on it more, but it wasn't because I did not receive any response. I would have stated it the same even if I had received a response.

I'm also willing to admit I may have it all wrong and that I may need as well as very willing to start from the beginning. I don't know if that has been made clear to me yet though. I still believe that I'm saved to no credit of my own. I also don't really have any motive to fake it, what would I have to gain to try and pull the wool over anyone's eyes in this matter? If I wanted to gain some worldly advantage I'd try and join a country club.