ROSE FROM "USA"
Wondering if you are familiar with the ministry of Zac Poonen? He preaches from a church the Lord gave him in India. Since the Lord graciously opened my eyes to come out of the institutionalized church fairly recently, I've been listening to the teaching of Zac Poonen because he preaches the gospel of the cross/Self denial which, as you well know, is not taught in most churches across America.
I am wondering if you able to help me out with discernment here, as I just listening to this message he preached on repentance, he does not address godly sorrow over sin as you do but a 100% turning from sin. If you have time or interest - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwrpz6Cv70E&feature=emb_rel_end
He does not take an offering in his church and seems to have strict guidelines to even refusing a gift from non believers.
https://www.cfcindia.com/our-financial-policy
Now I sense the Holy Spirit possibly leading me away from his ministry since I just learned that his son has a ministry in Colorado and they are State incorporated. Zac Poonen does conferences here also at his son's church.
http://rlcfchurch.org/
I really hate to think that he is double minded as I've learned much from his teachings in a short time. However, I also know I've been deceived about many things for a long period of time and do not want to be deceived any longer.
Please let me know if you able to help me discern the truth about this ministry and if the Spirit might lead you to share the truth about the 501c3 deception to
them, in case they might be truly ignorant of the danger in it.
Thanks for all the hard work you've done to help us not be deceived in a world filled full to brim with it.
Wondering if you are familiar with the ministry of Zac Poonen?No.
He preaches from a church the Lord gave him in India. Since the Lord graciously opened my eyes to come out of the institutionalized church fairly recently, I've been listening to the teaching of Zac Poonen because he preaches the gospel of the cross/Self denial which, as you well know, is not taught in most churches across America. I am wondering if you able to help me out with discernment here, as I just listening to this message he preached on repentance, he does not address godly sorrow over sin as you do but a 100% turning from sin. If you have time or interest - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwrpz6Cv70E&feature=emb_rel_endWell, if that is the case, then he is preaching works doctrine. I have not opened the video, but if you testify that he has taught turning from sin is repentance, then he teaches works to salvation. I'm in the middle of other work right now, and it would take me most of the day to sit down and critique an entire hour-long teaching, so if there is a particular time stamp you can give me (e.g. "Chris, would you respond to his comments from 23:00-24:00 min?"), that would be very helpful.
He does not take an offering in his church and seems to have strict guidelines to even refusing a gift from non believers. https://www.cfcindia.com/our-financial-policyHis first statement is contradictory:
"A genuine work of God may use money, but it is never dependent on money. It is dependent only on the power of the Holy Spirit. Where any work is dependent on money, it is not a genuine work of God."I understand what he's trying to say, but the problem is that, for example, a man who builds a shelter in the city for the homeless has electricity, water, and taxes they have to pay for, which is dependent on money, so his first paragraph is immediately turning me away from his ministry because he obviously lacks understanding. Because there are so many instances in which such a statement could be contradicted, it is dangerous to make such statements in the first place, and such statements are actually based on the so-called "wisdom" of men, not based on the Word of God.
Now I sense the Holy Spirit possibly leading me away from his ministry since I just learned that his son has a ministry in Colorado and they are State incorporated. Zac Poonen does conferences here also at his son's church. http://rlcfchurch.org/Well, if he's based out of India, he probably does not understand the matter. Also, I would just stick to judging the man's doctrine, which he teaches from his own mouth, because you cannot judge a man for what his son chooses to do, otherwise, you would have to condemn King David.
I really hate to think that he is double minded as I've learned much from his teachings in a short time. However, I also know I've been deceived about many things for a long period of time and do not want to be deceived any longer. All truth and knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit of God, not from men. That goes for what I teach as well:
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
-1Jo 2:26-27That is why it is better not to create loyalty to a particular man, but to create loyalty to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Please let me know if you able to help me discern the truth about this ministry and if the Spirit might lead you to share the truth about the 501c3 deception to them, in case they might be truly ignorant of the danger in it.I do not know this man, I do not know anything about his ministry, I have never heard of any of these people or their organizations, and the conviction seems to be coming from you, not from me. So if God has given you conviction, there is no reason to pass the burden of that conviction on my shoulders; rather, you should take that up if you have been given that passion to do so.
Thanks for all the hard work you've done to help us not be deceived in a world filled full to brim with it.I'm glad the Lord Jesus Christ has allowed me to be of some service to you in that manner.
ONE MONTH LATER...
Hi Chris,
Just thought I would take a minute and thank you for helping me in regard to discerning the spirit of this ministry. The Lord has been gracious to open the eyes of my heart to come out from among them.
FYI, if it matters, I neither had a conviction, nor was I trying to place a burden on your shoulders in regard to revealing revelation regarding 501c3 to this church. I was merely asking in light of your expertise on the matter and in dealing with those who become offended if it was something the Lord might allow you the privilege of doing. I do apologize for the misunderstanding and for not making myself more clear in the matter regarding my conviction and passion.
While I appreciate your ministry and all that you are doing to help those misled, if your heart is open I would ask if you might consider looking at the following teaching regarding Repentance. I must admit that I came away a bit dismayed with your teaching on this subject. While I appreciate your overwhelming emotional response, I don't think God has designed each of us to have exactly the same response to His grace as you were graciously allowed to experience.
https://blowthetrumpet.com.au/the-way-of-salvation/
https://blowthetrumpet.com.au/biblical-repentance-part-1/
https://blowthetrumpet.com.au/the-power-of-a-surrendered-life/
Sincerely In Christ and For His Glory, may the Lord continue to bless you abundantly.
NOTE: I knew her letter was deceptive by many reasons, and that she did not understand what she was talking about, but I chose to respond as charitably as I could to see what she would say and/or do.
While I appreciate your ministry and all that you are doing to help those misled, if your heart is open I would ask if you might consider looking at the following teaching regarding Repentance. I must admit that I came away a bit dismayed with your teaching on this subject. While I appreciate your overwhelming emotional response, I don't think God has designed each of us to have exactly the same response to His grace as you were graciously allowed to experience.I need to ask you some questions first before I look over those things: By the phrase "
emotional response," I take that to mean that you listened to the audio teaching I did on the subject (i.e. as opposed to reading the article teaching). Is that correct?
Did you listen to only part 1 and stop? Or did you listen to the entire series and check out the Scripture I provided? Here is the entire playlist:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbY08k2vP8_nXQtC1izDN_p7lutKuX9OII am assuming that you listened to all of it, and not just part, since you have indicated that you are a dedicated servant of Christ, and the Bible says:
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
-Pro 18:13
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
-Col 3:23Moving forward on the assumption that you would only respond after hearing the entire matter, what specifically did you have a problem with? Your letter was quite vague, and did not include any details yet. I would like to hear more details from you, and so if you can respond with your explanation (quotes and Scripture would be helpful), I will read it and get back with you. Since you were "
dismayed" (i.e. discouraged, lowered in spirit, and/or put into a state of fear), and that you profess your heart to be open, and profess your concern for others, I am sure you would want to be as accurate with me as possible to correct any errors, and so I will leave a link to my article where you can pull up any quotes to point out the mistakes:
http://www.creationliberty.com/articles/repent.phpI'm very glad you are a willing servant of Christ that is so charitable with your time and effort to help me understand these matters. Most people are just content to send me nothing but blanket accusations and links, but I would presume that you are hard-working, dedicated, and care enough about my soul, that you would spend an appropriate amount of time to write out a full explanation for me. I want to hear back from you before responding further. Thanks for your charitable work on my behalf.
THREE DAYS LATER, I HAD RECEIVED NO RESPONSE, SO I WROTE AGAIN...
It's been a few days, and I haven't heard anything back from you. I'm not sure if you received my letter or not, or if you're just working on your response. Please let me know, and I hope your family is healthy and doing well.
TEN DAYS LATER, STILL NO RESPONSE, SO I WROTE BACK A FINAL TIME...
It's been ten days, and there is no response coming from you, which tells me that either you never check your email (which I don't believe), you had a dire medical emergency (which I very much hope is not the case) or you're avoiding my emails and/or you have preemptively blocked my email address. The latter sounds correct, and so from this point, I'm no longer going to move forward under the assumption that you are a charitable Christian that cares about my soul, but rather, I will be addressing your lack of discernment, your lack of understanding of God's Word, and in cowardice, your hiding in fear so you will not have to be accountable for your deceptive words.
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
-Mat 12:36I am telling you these things for the sake of your soul, because I care about you, I want you to know the truth, even if you hate me for it, and I want you to get right with the Lord Jesus Christ.
Let's address your letter:
Just thought I would take a minute and thank you for helping me in regard to discerning the spirit of this ministry. The Lord has been gracious to open the eyes of my heart to come out from among them.Well... after this letter, we will see if that is true.
FYI, if it matters, I neither had a conviction, nor was I trying to place a burden on your shoulders in regard to revealing revelation regarding 501c3 to this church. I was merely asking in light of your expertise on the matter and in dealing with those who become offended if it was something the Lord might allow you the privilege of doing. I do apologize for the misunderstanding and for not making myself more clear in the matter regarding my conviction and passion.That was a lie. What was in your heart was clear by what you said; read it yourself from your first letter:
Please let me know if you able to help me discern the truth about this ministry and if the Spirit might lead you to share the truth about the 501c3 deception to them, in case they might be truly ignorant of the danger in it. Obviously, you were concerned about them being in danger of error, and therefore, you were hoping the Holy Spirit might lead me to conviction to share the matter with them so you would not have to (and you probably did not share it with them anyway, and based on what you have said to me so far, if I had to guess, it's because you wanted to avoid controversy, as women often do). I have no problem with your heart on the matter one way or another, but do not lie to me about what you wrote me; I do not appreciate that, and I do not know why you are trying to hide it, unless it was because you do not want to confess the truth that you did not really care enough about them to share it with them yourself.
While I appreciate your ministry and all that you are doing to help those misled, if your heart is open I would ask if you might consider looking at the following teaching regarding Repentance. I must admit that I came away a bit dismayed with your teaching on this subject. While I appreciate your overwhelming emotional response, I don't think God has designed each of us to have exactly the same response to His grace as you were graciously allowed to experience.I will address the finer details of what you said in just a moment, but there is a very big difference between this letter, and the last letter you wrote me. Perhaps you did not see it, but I will explain. You were thankful for help regarding the discernment of another ministry in the last letter, but in this letter, you were extremely confident that you had solid discernment on the author of the links you sent me, despite the fact that there are many serious problems with this "
blowthetrumpet" author.
Let's be frank before I begin: I have no idea what you believe. People often listen to me, then they write me, and they do not express what it is they believe. I have no way of discerning most of them because they have nothing online they have produced, so I cannot assess what they believe. I am forced, in most cases (under the doctrine of charity), to assume that everyone who writes me claiming to be a believer on Jesus is born again in Him, unless they express something in their letter which opposes Biblical doctrine and leads me to think otherwise. I just wanted to make that disclaimer so that you understand where I am coming from.
One of the main problems between your first letter and second letter is that when you had an objection against something a particular ministry was teaching, you were much more specific. You pointed out particular things you had problems with. However, when it came to critiquing me, you suddenly became incredibly vague, and then pointed to someone else's teaching on repentance, which you obviously prefer. Why you cannot be specific as to your objections with what I teach, I do not know because you have not written enough to help me discern that information.
Now, of course, the person you are referencing to obviously has some importance to you, otherwise you would not share what they teach on the gospel of repentance and faith, which means this is one of the primary men you follow, and that tells me a lot more.
I'm not sure if you actually read everything this man teaches, nor if you know what he believes, but the man is obviously a Zionist (i.e. those who, for all intents and purposes, worship Israel as if the nation itself is a god); that's for sure, and that also means his doctrine will be quite dangerous. He states it pretty clearly on his About page, without coming out and just saying he's a Zionist.
For example, he states:
"We believe that the New Covenant ratified in the blood of the Messiah was made with the House of Israel and Judah and not with the Church." The problem is that is
NOT what the Bible teaches. In the Holy Spirit, there is no Jew or Greek, but all are one in Christ Jesus (i.e. the seed of Abraham is by faith), and Jesus is the head over the church:
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
-Gal 3:26-29
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
-Eph 5:23
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
-Col 1:18The author also heavily leans to the writings of Hebrew-roots cultists I have seen, which is pretty clear if you scan through some of his teachings down the list he has on the right side of his website. I find it amazing that you needed my help in discerning another ministry, but you cannot see that you need more help in this area, and that's because you are weak in the faith and are splashing around the milk of the Word.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-Heb 5:13-14This man is a coward. He simply says his name is "Raoul." He refuses to put his name on what he is writing, and I know the typical excuse they use, namely that they claim they are "serving God," so they claim they should not put their name on what they are teaching, but the problem is that the man is hiding so he does not have to be held accountable for what he says, and it contradicts what God has taught us:
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
-2Ti 4:5
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
-Mat 5:14-16The domain is owned by a man named "Ian Ward" (I have no idea who that is) and is also registered by "Raoul Caire." Why he cannot just come out an say that is nonsensical, and demonstrates his cowardice.
Next, he uses new-age bible versions, which are corrupt and designed after the Westcott & Hort Greek New Testament, which was taken from the corrupt minority texts of the Catholic Church. I have a teaching on that where you can learn more details:
Why I Use The King James BibleThat is why so many authors provide Scripture references more often than they quote Scripture, and why they typically do not leave a link where you can read the Scripture reference for yourself because they are trying to pander to those who use a variety of new-age versions.
I'll end my analysis of Raoul with that because, in short, there are a lot of corruptions in this man's writings that could be mentioned, but it would take a lot of time I don't really want to spend time on it right now because I'm working on other projects. (i.e. Having to rebuke your letter is going to take enough time as it is.) In summary, Raoul is a man you obviously really like and follow because you wanted to share his doctrine when it comes to salvation. You would not share a man's doctrine on salvation if you did not truly believe everything he was teaching.
Before I get into Raoul's corrupt doctrine on repentance, I found it very strange that you cannot just be straight-forward with me and tell me you're from Illinois. I have no idea why you are treating me in such a fearful manner when you were more than willing to put your email and location (along with zip code) on an Unregistered Baptist Seekers list for everyone to see, but I can assure you that their website (independencebaptist.com) is filled to the brim with a lot of false teachers and cultic church buildings, and so born again Christians cannot find much there. I found your Facebook profile too, based on the information you gave me in these emails, and you are also guilty of swapping out corrupt new-age bible versions to get the Bible to say what you want it to say, so it makes sense why you blindly follow Raoul's false doctrine.
Also, it is sad that you are not prepared and/or refuse to spend the time to explain these subjects of doctrine yourself, but rather, you just refer to another preacher. I am starting to notice this pattern with you, where it seems you are adopting many teachers, and the Bible says that heaping (or piling up) many teachers is not what we Christians should be doing; rather, those who do that are turning their ears away from the truth because they seek to find what sounds good to them, instead of the what is right:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
-2Ti 4:3-4That all being said, let's go to Raoul's doctrine on repentance.
https://blowthetrumpet.com.au/biblical-repentance-part-1/ The first thing Raoul does in his article is shoot down the doctrine of repentance itself by lying about the facts:
"Many think that repentance is to feel sorry for doing something wrong"First of all, most people do not teach that, and second, it seems that Raoul is trying to approach this from a Roman Catholic's point of view, instead of viewing it from a general population point of view. (But he does not tell his readers that from the start.) Most people believe that the word 'repent' means "turning from sin" or "changing one's mind," and even something so childishly simple a Google search could disprove him, and so Raoul has his facts wrong.
After he has established what he believes
"many people think," he then changes what he believes most people think. He says:
"Religious people often equate repentance with a prayer of confession but it never really changes the way they live"The only conclusion I can come to is that either this man is lying, or he is extremely secluded from reality and the rest of society, and furthermore, he just changed his argument. First, he says that most people say that 'repent' means to "feel sorry," and then turns around and says that most people think 'repent' means "a prayer of confession." That's a man who cannot make up his mind.
He then goes on to write a section about why repentance is important
BEFORE he defines it. That makes no sense to me, but if we skip down a few pages, he finally starts to define what he means. He starts out by defining repentance correctly as "grief," but then he says something very strange that he never really explains:
"You may be remorseful but not repent. Judas Iscariot was filled with remorse after he had betrayed the Lord Jesus but he never repented."That is simply not true, and it shows his gross misunderstanding of the Scripture. There is a good reason why Raoul does not finish explaining this in his writing, nor does he refer to any Scripture when he mentions this, and that's because the Bible does not say what Raoul is trying to argue.
Judas had the sorrow of repentance in his heart, but he did not trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. That was the problem. Judas had repentance, and even turned from his sin, which is why he took the pieces of silver he was paid back to the temple and threw it on the floor.
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
-Matthew 27:4-6If Judas had cast down that silver, departed, and went and fell on his knees before the Lord Jesus Christ in his repentance, and trusted in Christ to save him, Jesus would have saved and healed him. Instead, Judas chose not to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and trusted only in his own works. He believed that there was nothing he could do to be redeemed, and though he had heard Jesus preach the Gospel first-hand for years, he did not believe it, which is why he hung himself. (This applies to a number of Catholics as well, as many of them are taught repentance as godly sorrow, but then worship a false christ.)
Part of the reason for Raoul's confusion is, once again, because he uses new-age bible versions. There are a number of versions that change the word 'repent' to 'remorse', and there is a lot of things that can be discerned by that alone. He is following after their corrupt versions, and without the Holy Spirit, he is blinded to it, and so because he follows new-age versions instead of the preserved Word of God (i.e. the King James Bible), he ends up in error, which is why I have told Christians countless times that they need to study the KJB.
I printed off that guy's article and discussed his teaching with my wife, and we went over a lot of it. There are
MANY more problems with his teaching than just this, but I wanted to provide you with some examples, and the reason for that is because (if I may borrow your words)
"if your heart is open I would ask if you might consider looking at" my entire teaching on repentance, which I know you did
NOT do.
How did I figure that out? By what you wrote:
While I appreciate your overwhelming emotional response,I know I had an emotional response at the end of that teaching, which I normally do not do, and try to avoid for the sake of others, but I only had that response in
PART 1 of the 6-part series. What that means is that you listened to part 1 and stopped, but you didn't think I would be able to figure that out, did you?
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
-Pro 18:13Finally, the most condemning thing is what you finished saying:
I don't think God has designed each of us to have exactly the same response to His graceFor by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
-Mat 12:37That shows me that you have not come to godly sorrow of your wrongdoing, and that this entire email you sent me was selfish, not sent out of any kind of love. You do not care about me or my soul one bit, which is why you would not respond to my inquiry. I took the time to respond to you because I care about your soul, but you hid because you are trying to justify yourself.
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
-Luke 16:15You started that sentence with
"I think," not with "
the Bible says" because you are not looking to the Word of God, but rather, you worship your own thoughts and opinions.
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
-Pro 21:2
He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
-Pro 28:26You believed, but you never had any repentance, and that should be embarrassing to you because even Judas repented. You need to pray that God would give you a contrite spirit and repentant heart, and that he would transform your prideful and selfish heart of stone into a heart of flesh because, again, He will not give His grace to the proud of heart:
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
-James 4:6
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
-Eze 36:26God draws close to those who have that heart of godly sorrow, and He saves them.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18It is precisely for this reason why I wrote the book:
Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to HellAnd Rose, be warned what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
-Mat 7:21-23Attempting to use a corrupt preacher to justify yourself will not save you from this.
Of course, from past experience, I can say it is very likely you will never read this letter, and more likely you will never read the
Why Millions book because, again, you only wrote that email to try and justify yourself. However, I'll share this with others in our church so that they can benefit from the information, that they may increase their discernment and know better how to answer fool according to his folly.
Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.
-Pro 13:16
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
-Pro 26:5The Lord God has been extremely merciful and longsuffering to me, and I have already prayed that He would not only extend to you that same kindness, but that He would also provide you and your family health and prosperity in your household. Have a great day, and I hope you depart from our ministry in peace.
END OF EXCHANGE
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