This person did not provide a first name, but gave a last name; I was a bit cautious, considering I should just archive the letter and not respond, but I decided to go ahead and respond to it. It's just very odd that a person would not just give their first name and exclude their last name, and normally, I don't post last names, but this is all I was sent.
J. LUPSETT FROM UK:
https://www.cyber-chapel.org/Elders.pdf
https://lewayotte.com/2013/01/10/there-is-no-biblical-support-for-paid-pastorselders/
Hi There is much on this website with which I can heartily agree, but one thing which I cannot is the request for money. Scripture teaches that if a man will not work he should not eat. There is no paid ministry in Scripture. Even Paul, who was a true itinerant, worked night and day in order to support himself (and others) and so he would not be a burden to others. Elders/Pastors who were not itinerant and could therefore easily hold down paid labour were told not only to support themselves and their own families but to have enough to share with those less able to provide (whether cripples or widows etc).
As such, I would urge you to relook at Scripture for instruction on this matter. Whilst you are expecting to live off the charity of others (those who presumably are working as Scripture commands) you weaken your testimony to the Lord and your example to His people.
I have copied two links to material which I find to be excellent on this subject from men who have been willing to stand against the majority on this matter and stand for truth and a good testimony before all men.
I send this with assurance of my prayers
There is much on this website with which I can heartily agree, but one thing which I cannot is the request for money. Scripture teaches that if a man will not work he should not eat. There is no paid ministry in Scripture.First of all, I am not concerned whether or not you agree with me because your agreement is not relevant to the truth, nor does such a vague, deceptive statement at the start of your letter endear you to me any way. Secondly, I'm ignoring your links because I don't care about your false doctrines. The fact is that you do not know the Scripture on this matter, but before I share it with you, it needs to be said that you ought to be ashamed of yourself that you wrote me in arrogance instead of asking me about the matter first. If you want to believe the nonsense you wrote me and refuse to hear, then go ahead and depart, and I hope you have a wonderful day, but shame on you for not searching the Scriptures on this topic before writing me with such leavened doctrine.
First of all, that sentence heavily implied that you think I don't work. That's insulting, and I don't appreciate it. It's also based on your willful blindness. You don't know a fraction of what I do. For example, having to rebuke arrogant scoffers in emails like this is just one of the many jobs I have to do. These take time to do, having to spend over an hour writing, color-coding, and proof-reading this letter more than once, and if it weren't for such scoffing, self-righteous letters like yours, I could get more done.
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
-1Ti 5:17-18Muzzling the ox means that you withhold from them that which they should be rewarded for. Now, perhaps most pastors and elders don't do anything on a regular basis, and in that case, I could get behind a statement that says they should not receive reward because I've seen that many times (i.e. those who just glad-hand people and don't do any work) However, I actually work. I don't have a staff. I do all the study, research, writing, fact-checking, coding, updates, audio editing, video editing, website editing, publishing, corrections, and much more. With the exception of PDFs and the occasional spelling/typo corrections I receive, I do everything else by myself, and it shows that you have obviously never even attempted to do what I do, since you have no idea how much work goes into doing this, while you arrogantly sit back and benefit from the work I've done, judging me and my wife in your unrighteousness, as if we should have nothing to eat because I don't work another full-time job on top of around 60 hours a week I put into this alone. The kind of labor I am doing is what is being talked about in 1st Timothy, and if there are pastors and elders who get lazy, then they should not receive reward, but you should be embarrassed that you would call for food to be taken from the mouths of those who work. It's almost unbelievable that you would be so hard-hearted and cruel, but after all the hateful mail I get on a weekly basis, I shouldn't be surprised anymore.
Even Paul, who was a true itinerant, worked night and day in order to support himself (and others) and so he would not be a burden to others.Well, at least that confirms for me that you have don't know what you're talking about. Paul owned businesses, which is how he was able to support himself. He worked day and night preaching the Gospel, healing the sick, and teaching. That was his full-time job. I would back that up with some Scripture, but perhaps you should try opening up the book of Acts some time and actually studying it because the evidence that supports what I'm saying is everywhere.
(In fact, I have my notes on the book of Acts published, walking through it verse by verse, and you can find that here: http://creationliberty.com/articles/bookacts.php)And it should be noted that Paul (the man you referred to), by the Holy Spirit of God, wrote this:
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
-1Co 9:9-14I'll leave it to Christians in the church to judge whether I am worthy of any reward because I serve them on behalf of the Lord Jesus Christ for your sake, and even if you are unwilling to humble yourself to understand the truth, you are still receiving the benefits from my hard work, which I have been allowed to do only via the gifts of wisdom and understanding I have received from the Lord God.
Elders/Pastors who were not itinerant and could therefore easily hold down paid labour were told not only to support themselves and their own families but to have enough to share with those less able to provide (whether cripples or widows etc).And you have no Scripture references in your letter whatsoever. That's actually quite typical. About 95% of emails I receive are just like this; scoffers whining about their false doctrines without evidence.
As such, I would urge you to relook at Scripture for instruction on this matter. Whilst you are expecting to live off the charity of others (those who presumably are working as Scripture commands) you weaken your testimony to the Lord and your example to His people.Mr. Lupsett, I would urge you to relook at Scripture for instruction on this matter. Whilst you are expecting to take advantage of the charity of others around you (those who are working as Scripture commands), you weaken your testimony to the Lord and His people by your selfish, prideful, and willingly ignorant attitude.
I have copied two links to material which I find to be excellent on this subject from men who have been willing to stand against the majority on this matter and stand for truth and a good testimony before all men.I'm glad you shared those with me so I know to stay away from those two sites. Your leaven was enough to keep me away from those false doctrines. I do appreciate that.
I send this with assurance of my prayersI'm sure lines like that make you look good on the outside, don't they?
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
-John 7:24
Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
-Psalm 12:1-6
I am saddened but not surprised by your reply.
You presume any who differ to you must be responded to with hostility and be immediately dismissed.
That's a rather weak position to be in. It leaves little opportunity for growth or for correction.
I pray the Lord further instruct you and that you would have ears to hear.
I also pray for those who have attached themselves to you via the website. That they would be open to correction and instruction even.....or especially....when you are not.
Paul said that just as an ox should receive the reward due (grain) and as a labourer should receive what's due to him (wages) so too should elders receive honour. Honour was their reward....not grain, not wages....honour.
Elders were men who worked (in proper jobs) to support their own families and to support the weaker, poorer members of the local assemblies. They never asked the flock for money. Rather they gave to the needy in the flock. Paul worked with his own hands to earn enough to support himself and others.
I understand that the church has taught falsehood on this for hundreds of years and that clergy have come to expect financial support (basically full time wages). However, Scripture is very clear on the matter. There is no paid ministry. True itinerants can rightly expect gifts of food and shelter if they cannot find work due to their travels but Paul gives a better example by working so as not to be a burden. Those who live in one place have no right to expect others to feed them or pay them. They can and should earn their own way and one who establishes himself as a teacher/leader should all the more set the example and work hard enough to share what he has earned with others who are in need.
It is unlikely you will have ears to hear any of this but that doesn't alter the fact it has been shared with you and ignorance will not now be a justifiable defense for disobedience.
It is hard to respect your rushed and thoughtless reply. Had you bothered to read the links first and study the Scriptures shared within them you may have embarrassed yourself less.
Goodnight
I WAS SENT ANOTHER LETTER SIX MINUTES LATER:
Ps.
God doesn't command you to work 60 hours on a website. He does command you to work to provide for your own. If you stopped doing what He nowhere commanded you would have plenty of time to work a full time job.
It is hardly 'cruel and hardhearted' to expect an able bodied man to earn his own money is it?
I am saddened but not surprised by your reply. You presume any who differ to you must be responded to with hostility and be immediately dismissed. That's a rather weak position to be in. It leaves little opportunity for growth or for correction.No, your arrogance was obvious from the first sentence you wrote in your first letter. What you're doing now is hiding that hostility, and I don't get along well with those who will not be honest and straight-forward with me. Even now you're not writing me looking for a discussion, which is why this will be my last response to you; you're wasting my time. Normally, I would not respond, but for the sake of other brethren in our church, I will answer the fool according to his folly, so he will not think himself wise in his own arrogance.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
-Pro 26:5I pray the Lord further instruct you and that you would have ears to hear. I pray that for myself too, but I would pray it for you as well, and furthermore that you would learn to judge yourself.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
-1Co 11:31I also pray for those who have attached themselves to you via the website. That they would be open to correction and instruction even.....or especially....when you are not.I'll be sure to share your words with them, especially the back handed-slap you just gave to all of them, claiming that those of us in Christ's church are not open to correction or instruction (which you have spoken presumptuously), and that you have lied to say that I am not correctable. (This will be laughable to them, since they have watched me submit to correction.) Furthermore, your blinded to your blatant hypocrisy, since I just corrected you from the Scripture, and you refused correction, because you forsake the ways of God and hide your malice behind feigned words.
Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.
-Pro 15:10You speak of things you know not, and God WILL judge.
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
-Rom 2:16Paul said that just as an ox should receive the reward due (grain) and as a labourer should receive what's due to him (wages) so too should elders receive honour. Honour was their reward....not grain, not wages....honour. I knew you would try that. That's why I gave you correlating verses from 1st Corinthians 9:9-14 to prove the context of what was being said, that they should live of the gospel, just as those who worked in the Temple earned their living that way. (Hint: The Levites did not have honor for dinner.) Only one who is willingly blind cannot see that context. You ignored it so you could continue to believe in the leavened false doctrine you were taught, so you can accuse others with your holier-than-thou attitude.
Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
-Isaiah 65:5This is why I can use Scripture in a conversation like this, and you cannot, because I understand it, but you do not of the strong meat of the Word.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
-Heb 5:14Elders were men who worked (in proper jobs) to support their own families and to support the weaker, poorer members of the local assemblies. They never asked the flock for money. Rather they gave to the needy in the flock. Paul worked with his own hands to earn enough to support himself and others. You're wasting my time because you just repeated almost verbatim the exact same thing you wrote in your first letter. Did you think repeating yourself was going to accomplish something?
I understand that the church has taught falsehood on this for hundreds of years and that clergy have come to expect financial support (basically full time wages).Clergy is not Biblical term (it's a Catholic term), and I don't earn full time wages.
However, Scripture is very clear on the matter.Yeah, I showed you the Scripture, but you ignored it.
There is no paid ministry.That part is correct, but there is reward of charity to those who labor in the Word of God, but you cannot understand that, nor the reasons for it, without the Holy Spirit of God:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
-1Co 2:14True itinerants can rightly expect gifts of food and shelter if they cannot find work due to their travels but Paul gives a better example by working so as not to be a burden. Those who live in one place have no right to expect others to feed them or pay them. They can and should earn their own way and one who establishes himself as a teacher/leader should all the more set the example and work hard enough to share what he has earned with others who are in need.I'm amazed that you just walk blindly in your assumptions that I do not work nor help those who are in need. I have no need to tell you those things to be seen of men; I'll let God judge, and all will be revealed in the end. You won't be able to hide behind your computer screen in that day. (i.e. You have not shared a single thing about what you do and teach, nor shown any evidence of it.)
And again, you are repeating the exact same thing you said in your first letter almost verbatim, and once again, no Scripture. That shows me that you cannot even discuss this matter because you are unlearned; that's why you have to give me links to leavened preachers in place of Scripture because you do not know enough to have a discussion on your own. That tells me everything I need to know about you, and that you are wildly arrogant for someone without understanding. You need to come to the humility of repentance, which is grief and godly sorrow of wrongdoing because you will not enter heaven by saying a "sinner's prayer" and playing church.
Is Repentance Part of Salvation?But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
-James 4:6
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
-Luke 13:3It is unlikely you will have ears to hear any of this but that doesn't alter the fact it has been shared with you and ignorance will not now be a justifiable defense for disobedience.To this, I can only respond with the words I was given: It is unlikely you will have ears to hear any of this, but that doesn't alter the fact that it has been shared with you and now, willful ignorance will not be a justifiable defense for false doctrine.
It is hard to respect your rushed and thoughtless reply. Had you bothered to read the links first and study the Scriptures shared within them you may have embarrassed yourself less.To this, I can only respond: It is hard to respect your rushed and thoughtless reply. Had you bothered to read the Scripture and study what I shared with you, you may have embarrassed yourself less. Although, I will add that my suspicion is that you do not have the Holy Spirit of God to open your understanding; therefore is it impossible for you to see it, no matter how much you study it.
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
-2Ti 3:7Why Millions of Believers on Jesus Are Going to HellPs.I have to laugh a little because you try to give a false outward appearance in your writing of having a calm demeanor, even though I can see through that, into the contempt you hide underneath, but you could not wait six minutes before sending another letter to say, "
And another thing!" Anything you say beyond this point is only going to embarrass you and make the problem worse.
God doesn't command you to work 60 hours on a website. He does command you to work to provide for your own.So let's say I worked 60 hours per week as a web designer, building someone else's website who was doing nothing for the Lord Jesus Christ, and earning a paycheck from that, you're saying that would be acceptable? You're literally teaching that doing the same exact work for anyone except the Lord Jesus Christ would be the only acceptable work for the Lord Jesus Christ. I'm actually sitting here laughing a little right now because I don't know how else to react. You have been deceived into the leaven of other false preachers, but I cannot help someone who is that far gone; that is just someone who cannot be taught or reasoned with, and you should depart in peace. (Btw, the definition of a 'fool' in Scripture is someone who cannot be reasoned with.)
Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
-Pro 23:9If you stopped doing what He nowhere commanded you would have plenty of time to work a full time job.I didn't realize God had given you a prophetic vision that told you His Word was wrong, and that we were not commanded to teach (which is what I am doing on that website), and to spread that message into all nations. But again, you're so arrogant, you think your opinion trumps the Word of God:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
-Mat 28:18-20Thanks to Lord God for the internet because I've been able to reach men and women with Christ's doctrine in every continent across the world at the same time. By His blessings alone, we have hundreds of visitors every day searching out Christ's doctrine. How many have you reached?
It is hardly 'cruel and hardhearted' to expect an able bodied man to earn his own money is it?No, it's cruel and hardhearted to expect that a man who labors in the Word should have his mouth muzzled, and for that, you should be ashamed, but I can't help a man (or woman, because you have not specified) whose conscience has been seared.
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
-1Ti 4:2Everything I teach and produce is free. No one is required to give anything. I started out by working a job and doing ministry, and if I have to go back to that, I will, but because of the charity of a few of my brethren (who have given only by their own conviction from the Holy Spirit of God), I am able to do many times more than I could when I was working another job. And they continue to give so I can keep working.
Here's the bottom line:
If you don't like that, then leave because I'm done having you waste my time. I would rather serve those who want to hear, than those who have closed their ears. Have a great day, and I pray the Lord Jesus Christ would show you as much mercy and longsuffering as He has shown me.
"You have to realize, Paul (the author of this letter) repeatedly says that although they have the right to receive money for their work, they did not pursue this right. They did this so they would not hinder the gospel. Oh, and there is also an often ignored smoking gun in this verse. Do you see it? This verse has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with pastors or elders! This is about missionaries. Paul was not an elder or a pastor, he was a missionary. He was travelling from town to town as a missionary spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. Now, I would be the last person to argue that we should not support missionary work, but Paul here says it is ideal for a missionary to find their own work and support themselves! But we cannot deny the fact that in this context, those who proclaim the gospel get their living from the gospel is talking about people who are leaving their home town and travelling far away to share about the Christ. In other words, these are people who would, in any normal situation, have a hard time finding employment and supporting their own physical needs." Quote from one of the links in reference to 1 Corinthians 9
Had you read the links you would have seen full explanations of every verse in Scripture which touches on this matter.
Clergy is indeed a man made tradition. I used the word because I was referring to it as man made, along with the man made tradition of giving them a salary.
This (below) is copied and pasted from another man's website. These are his words not mine, but I fully agree with them.
(I would urge you to open and read the first two links I shared and respond Biblically to them. I am always willing to be corrected if it can be shown from Scripture where my position is wrong. It is a great shame you put up your hackles so quickly. We might otherwise have been able to build one another up in true faith but you seem set upon hostility.)
New Testament Pattern
Should A Christian Ask For Money?
An Open Rebuke
Posted by Rick | Sundry Thoughts
END OF EXCHANGE
I'm not going to post the teaching that this person copy/pasted into the email simply because it's full of awkward punctuation that the forum software would reject. I'm sure that's something you guys could look up online if you were curious, since it has the name and author, but again, this Lupsett person would not (and could not) use the Scripture; he (or she, but I'll just refer to him as he for now) posted links only and referred to other teachers.
If he has studied this matter to such a degree, why could he not have a discussion with me about the issue? Why could he not quote Scripture for himself? Why did he end up repeating himself almost verbatim, as if he was reading cue cards? This is because he is likely unlearned on the subject, but copy/pastes things in ignorance, while trying (and failing) to give an outward appearance of humility and knowledge to deceive others.
This guy should be ashamed, and frankly, I was angry with him when I read this. I have made a lot of effort over the years to stay as far away from the love of money as possible, to work honestly in ministry, to do what's right over what's convenient, and the day I'm posting this, some of you know that Lorraine and I and traveling out of state to go help one of the members of our church. I'll let our church judge if what I say is true. I didn't bother telling that to the person in the email because he didn't care; all he cared about was holding on to this false doctrine, and I could give my theories about why he was doing it, but that's a lot of writing, and Lorraine and I are busy today trying to prepare for our trip, so perhaps I'll save that for the church over Skype if they ask.
In addition, he back-hand slaps all of you, believing that none of you will be corrected to anything. I know for a fact that's not true, but he will condemn as many people as necessary to justify himself.
One thing you'll notice is that this person never said what it is they do in ministry. They didn't mention where they fellowship or any such thing. I tried to investigate and find some information on this person, but I was unable to confirm any of the information I found. I thought I found an account this person had on Instagram, and if I found the right person, and he/she is very worldly. But this is the reason they are not forthcoming with who they are, what they believe, and what they do; whereas all of that is open to the public on my end, and many people who write me take advantage of that fact, hiding behind their computer screens instead of coming forward to be judged openly.
If you read 1st Corinthians, the context Paul gave is clear as day, and that's why I have never argued that a pastor or elder should not earn a reward for their work, but rather, I have preached against them doing ministry for the sake of a reward, and there are many of those kind out there.
I also found it humorous that I called this guy out on his use of the word 'clergy', which he tried to recover by claiming that he was using it on purpose in a negative way. That's a lie by the way. Did any of you catch the problem with it? In the context of the letter, he was referring to what pastors and elders OUGHT to be doing, which means he used the term 'clergy' to refer to those who were to do what is right in the positive sense. To further give evidence of that deception, you'll notice in the last response he sent, he used the term "missionary," which is also a Catholic term, and thus, it appears that this guy (or gal, as I suspect this may be a female) does not understand these details.
He lied about 1Co 9 as well, saying that the context was about "missionaries," but the context was about those who "preach the gospel," as Paul said in verse 14. The muzzle with the ox reference was used in the same context in both Scriptures, but this guy refuses to acknowledge that. Then he lied by saying that he's always willing to be corrected, but when I corrected him, he just referred back to other websites. I can't help someone like that; I need to move on and get back to work, but I hope this helps others to understand the matter more clearly.
Sadly, there is a problem in our society, namely, that people think that "being a minister" means you have to go to a seminary and get a degree, and then afterwards, you have a paycheck waiting for you. They are not willing to put in the work and effort when they have nothing, just working hard and trusting in the Lord God to provide; this system of salaries for pastors has become a blight on this nation, and has forced us to sanctify ourselves from most church buildings because they follow tradition rather than truth. What's more disappointing is now seeing another side, which condemns for having food to eat if you serve the Lord Jesus Christ, and we need to sanctify ourselves from both sides.
In a nutshell, I'm trying to get this person to see the Scripture, while he's trying to get others to see what some other preachers have said. Again, I don't follow traditions and doctrines of men; I follow what God has to say on the matter.But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
-Mat 15:9As a final note, this person is a murmuring person, and some of the accusations were so subtle, the average person will not notice them. For example, he called my emails "hackles," which I had to go look up because I had no idea what that was. It actually refers to dogs or wolves when their hair stands up when they are alarmed, and the implication is that I am a wolf. I just wanted to make you all aware of the deception and slyness behind this guy's letter, and I'll let you comment on it as you please.
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