Author Topic: Psychology And The Bible  (Read 29973 times)

anvilhauler

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2019, 05:54:24 AM »
A lot gets thrown in under the term 'psychology'.  For example 'cognition'.  Cognition isn't a study of a person's "psyche" but because it requires the use of the brain it gets thrown in under 'psychology'.  It could be listed under 'neuroscience' but it really doesn't fit too well there either.  A few years back I even purchased the book "The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat" because it is full of case histories of interesting situations where people have interesting abnormalities in their thinking and cognition.  Some were born that way and some are the result of deterioration with age.  Some are "savants" and have exceptional ability to remember a whole book after reading it once and others have the ability to remember every conversation they have ever had in their lives.  Unfortunately everything like this gets thrown in under 'psychology'. 

After an Air New Zealand DC10 crashed in to Mount Erebus in Antarctica in 1979 killing everyone on board one of the other executive pilots who also used to pilot that sightseeing route knew that whatever the captain (and first officer) experienced and what he would have been able to see looking out the front of the aircraft would have also happened to him if he was the one flying the plane that day because they both had about the same skill level as pitots.  On leaving Air New Zealand (quitting the job in disgust) he enrolled at Auckland University to study psychology and especially visual psychology because he knew that that was where the answers lay and as a result of that study and his findings he along with others were able to unravel the lies and deception of Air New Zealand and the New Zealand Government (the major shareholder in Air New Zealand) and expose the coverup that was being attempted and what really happened.  The judge chosen to head the court of enquiry made the now famous statement in New Zealand that "Air New Zealand and the New Zealand Government are guilty of an orchestrated litany of lies".

Next month is the 40th anniversary of the Mount Erebus crash.  Like everyone else I stayed up until after midnight listening to news reports that an Air New Zealand DC10 was missing after a sightseeing flight to Antarctica.  The next morning the first thing on the news was that the wreckage had been found.  At work everyone was tired and some stayed up even later than I did and we all stood around at work for the whole morning talking and no work got done at all.  We all got to see how small New Zealand is because everyone knew someone on the plane or they knew someone who knew someone.  I knew a man a few years younger than me and his father was on the plane.

In the end it was a field of 'psychology' that brought truth and justice.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

Timothy

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2019, 07:42:08 AM »
Quote
I still should have given you the courtesy of responding instead of allowing my pride to get in the way. Ignoring something out of pride is not what I'm doing here, though.

You just admitted that you ignored him in your pride and then turned around in the next sentence and lied by saying that you didn't do it. You won't turn out to be a very good psychologist if you can't even lie convincingly. If you can't catch your own lie you won't catch another's. You basically said, "I shouldn't have ignored you in my pride, but I didn't ignore you in my pride."



I was addressing two different scenarios. I was admitting that I ignored him on the God is With Us topic. Chris is accusing me of ignoring something falsely on a different topic. That, I am not admitting to as I've not done what he has accused me of. I guess I didn't make that clear.

That was my mistake. I thought you were talking about the same topic when you said that. I'm sorry about that. I should have read that in closer detail.
Quote
I admitted to calling him those things unintentionally, yes. I'm not admitting to calling him those things intentionally (because I didn't), which is what you would probably like to happen. You can call me a liar, sure. God knows the truth. I was not calling him out as arrogant or childish or any of those things.

But this is what we are trying to tell you and what you are refusing to admit, even though you're blatantly doing it here. What you're saying is "I'm not sorry for spilling the drink on you because it wasn't my intention." You're hiding behind your intentions to avoid responsibility for your words. That's not how humility works no matter how many times you want to feign apologies of coming off the wrong way.

And yes. God does know the truth, but your pride is getting in the way from you seeing this the way God sees it. That's my concern for you.

This is why Chris has no interest in continuing this with people like you. When you can't admit to something so simple, there's little hope of change without God giving that person repentance to acknowledge the truth. Without God it would truly be impossible.

I have to leave for work so this is all I'm going to say for now.

Jeanne

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2019, 08:57:33 AM »
Kevin, do optical illusions really fall under the category of 'psychology', though? I remember reading about the story several years back (after I moved here) and I just looked up that website again. Seems that it involved a phenomenon known as 'sector whiteout' in which an area may look completely flat when it is not. (And, in this case, hid an entire mountain.)

A mirage is a different type of optical illusion, in which a mountain or other large object appears to be suspended in midair, or that hot, dry ground appears to be covered in water.

I fail to see how these optical illusions could be classified as psychological in nature, however.

Jackie

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2019, 02:25:36 PM »


That was my mistake. I thought you were talking about the same topic when you said that. I'm sorry about that. I should have read that in closer detail.

Alright. I'm glad this was cleared up.


But this is what we are trying to tell you and what you are refusing to admit, even though you're blatantly doing it here. What you're saying is "I'm not sorry for spilling the drink on you because it wasn't my intention." You're hiding behind your intentions to avoid responsibility for your words. That's not how humility works no matter how many times you want to feign apologies of coming off the wrong way.


No. What I'm saying is more like "I'm sorry for spilling the drink on you on accident. You're accusing me of purposefully doing it. But I'm not owning up to doing it on purpose because I didn't do it on purpose." You're accusing me of purposefully doing it and are trying to get me to agree with you that I purposefully did it. And I'm really starting to wonder why? I mean, I know what reason will be given. You think I'm lying and that I had the secret intention of insulting and railing on Chris. And that I'm lying about not caring that it was the word "ego" he singled out. I've already told you that I'm not lying about either. Repeatedly trying to get me to confess a sin I haven't committed might be showing a lack of discernment on your part.

 I don't presume to know Chris well enough to make such a harsh judgment on his character as a whole. Or his motivations for what he does.


And yes. God does know the truth, but your pride is getting in the way from you seeing this the way God sees it. That's my concern for you.

I realize pride can often be a blinder to the truth, which is why I am making sure to ask God to reveal to me any pride I might have. It is likely a bit of pride that is driving me to keep trying to convince you guys that the accusations against me are false. But I know ultimately that I can't do that. Only God can convince anyone of anything (when it comes to truth). I'll have to let the hurt from all of the potentially railing accusations and words go. I say "potentially railing" as I'm still learning the full implications and applications of the word "railing". And I'm calling for a heart check on you guys, so you guys can make sure that there is no sinful motive or action in you all (in regards to this issue).


This is why Chris has no interest in continuing this with people like you. When you can't admit to something so simple, there's little hope of change without God giving that person repentance to acknowledge the truth. Without God it would truly be impossible.


Agreed. Without God, repentance is impossible. The fact that I won't confess to something I didn't do is not an indication of a lack of repentance. Why would I confess a sin I didn't commit? How crazy would that be?

Anyways, I hope that you had a good, productive day at work and that neither this issue nor any others weighed too heavily on your mind during it.

anvilhauler

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2019, 03:06:08 PM »
Kevin, do optical illusions really fall under the category of 'psychology', though? I remember reading about the story several years back (after I moved here) and I just looked up that website again. Seems that it involved a phenomenon known as 'sector whiteout' in which an area may look completely flat when it is not. (And, in this case, hid an entire mountain.)

A mirage is a different type of optical illusion, in which a mountain or other large object appears to be suspended in midair, or that hot, dry ground appears to be covered in water.

I fail to see how these optical illusions could be classified as psychological in nature, however.

That is why there is a bit of a problem with everything being lumped in under psychology. 

On that DC10 crash it wasn't just a problem of whiteout.  The co-ordinates in the flight computer had been changed overnight without the pilot being notified and the new route put the plane on a direct collision course with Mount Erebus. What the pilots were seeing out the front of the aircraft was exactly what they should have been seeing but it was a different location that looked exactly the same   .....  except for a big mountain in the way.

On the topic of everything being thrown in under psychology even the layout of the pilot's instrument panel comes under psychology as does things like evacuation procedures.  For fast evacuation of aircraft the designers use psychology to understand how people think when they are under extreme stress and fear to make it as easy and fast for them to get off a plane. 

All of this stuff is of course a long way off from the rubbish that came out from people like Freud but sadly the whole lot gets lumped in under psychology because it has an association with the brain and the way people think and perceive and behave.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

anvilhauler

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2019, 09:29:20 PM »
A mirage is a different type of optical illusion, in which a mountain or other large object appears to be suspended in midair, or that hot, dry ground appears to be covered in water.

I fail to see how these optical illusions could be classified as psychological in nature, however.

I meant to comment on this.  This isn't an optical illusion as these are just the physics of light due to temperature and differing densities of air.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

Jeanne

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2019, 10:21:01 PM »
I meant to comment on this.  This isn't an optical illusion as these are just the physics of light due to temperature and differing densities of air.

Isn't that pretty much what sector whiteout is, too?

anvilhauler

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2019, 12:36:41 AM »
I meant to comment on this.  This isn't an optical illusion as these are just the physics of light due to temperature and differing densities of air.

Isn't that pretty much what sector whiteout is, too?

Yes it is, but the problem with the visual the pilots saw when looking down the Ross Sea to McMurdo Sound (which wasn't where they were) was exactly what they expected to see but the mountain that would have been a dead giveaway that they were in the wrong location and that something was seriously wrong was obscured by snow whiteout and all of the rest of the scenario was clear sky and they could see the cliffs in the distance etc just as they expected to see.  The cliffs they were looking at were Ross Island and at the distance they were they looked exactly the same as the cliffs down McMurdo Sound.



This is sort of a bit out of place in the forum but it does again show the dishonesty that some are prepared to sink to.  When the very first crash investigator team got to the wreckage by helicopter to check for possible survivors they found after some time that they can not have been the first at the crash site.  Key pieces of evidence were already missing.  The captain had a big family atlas that he took with him and had even marked their route in it and it was never found even though everything else was and also his ring binder of flight notes was found in the snow closed correctly but all of the pages were mysteriously missing.  The only ones with transport and survival gear etc to get in to a mountainous and inhospitable place like that within a day or two typically would have been special forces soldiers.  Meanwhile the captain's house was being "burgled" while his grieving wife wasn't home and all documentation relevant to Air New Zealand operations was stolen.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2019, 07:18:36 AM »
Wow! 

I think I might have heard about this in a podcast that I was listening to.  Key evidence was missing??  Interesting!  Thanks for sharing this.  I would think they would have had enough good orientation to know they had gone in a type of circle, but I will never get a chance to fly a plane and understand how that works, so I could be wrong here.
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Matthew 9:13

creationliberty

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2019, 10:11:13 AM »
What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

We discussed Jackie's first posts together over Skype last night; figured someone would say something about that.
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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2019, 10:38:45 AM »
What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?


Why do they have to stick to the topic at hand?

We discussed Jackie's first posts together over Skype last night; figured someone would say something about that.

Perhaps they are taking cues from you to just ignore me?


Laura

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2019, 11:15:15 AM »
I am sorry for my role in derailing the topic of this thread. I should have started a separate discussion to address the things that were not related to the subject here.

Jackie,
How do expect someone to understand a bigger issue (repentance and the truth of Christ) when they cannot even be corrected on a little one (use of the word "ego" and the psychology behind it)? Do you honestly think that is what led this man to ignore his response? I doubt it. It is apparent he has a lot of problems in his heart that need worked out first, and while Christopher did his best to show him his errors, it is up to God to open his eyes to the truth.

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew‬ 13:13-15‬ KJB
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 11:17:57 AM by Laura »

Jackie

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2019, 01:16:48 PM »


Jackie,
How do expect someone to understand a bigger issue (repentance and the truth of Christ) when they cannot even be corrected on a little one (use of the word "ego" and the psychology behind it)? Do you honestly think that is what led this man to ignore his response? I doubt it. It is apparent he has a lot of problems in his heart that need worked out first, and while Christopher did his best to show him his errors, it is up to God to open his eyes to the truth.

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew‬ 13:13-15‬ KJB


You make a good point, Laura. Leslie definitely had much deeper issues going on. He was already incensed. Which is why I wasn't defending him specifically. That's also why I didn't address the main point of Leslie's post. I wasn't there to refute nor defend what he was saying. Just pointing out that it generally doesn't help to correct someone on a minor issue when you're discussing a separate bigger issue.

Think of it this way. You're in an argument with someone about something, and you make a grammatical error. That other person decides to correct you on it. Pretty irritating, right? It may be good to correct someone on their grammatical errors, but perhaps not in a heated argument (or during an intense discussion). Pride is often the motivation behind such corrections.

Or, perhaps this is a better example. You are arguing with someone you don't know (so you lack the benefit of knowing the person and how to best respond to them in a way that would help them best). That person, perhaps trying to be dismissive of your point of view, says "You're just so lucky that you haven't been through what I have". Is it really going to help that person in that moment to point out to them that luck doesn't exist and is derived from false belief systems? Or is it perhaps more prudent to just address statement as a whole and any underlying issues that person might be having? Again, pride is often the motivation behind such corrections.

creationliberty

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2019, 02:08:53 PM »
Perhaps they are taking cues from you to just ignore me?
And again, this is more evidence of your railing accusations, verbally slapping everyone here in the face without any justification (especially those who have tried to talk with you), which is why we can't hardly have a rational discussion with you. If anything, as of now, you're living proof that my book on psychology is correct because you have not given account and taken responsibility for your accusations, and you won't confess your sin.

If you want to come to a Skype call on a Thursday night to discuss this with all of us to try and work this out for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ, I'll invite you, and I assure you, we will not treat you in the contemptuous manner you have treated me on this matter. However, you have got to stop the childish, passive aggressive (i.e. murmuring) slap-and-run comments like this because, as of right now, I am not seeing any evidence of the grief and godly sorrow you claimed (in your introduction post) to have had when you were saved because you are feigning humility in your posts.

murmur (n): a complaint half suppressed, or uttered in a low, muttering voice
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
-1Co 10:10
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18

anvilhauler

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2019, 06:46:14 PM »
What does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

We discussed Jackie's first posts together over Skype last night; figured someone would say something about that.

The only reason I left it under the heading of psychology was because there are some valid areas that come under psychology.  I was looking to see what Jackie's responses would be with regards to any particular area of psychology she might mainly be interested in and in that regard it still fitted in with the main topic.

I should have started a different thread.
And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the Lord, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men.  Micah 5:7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

Jackie

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2019, 12:15:21 PM »
Perhaps they are taking cues from you to just ignore me?
And again, this is more evidence of your railing accusations, verbally slapping everyone here in the face without any justification (especially those who have tried to talk with you), which is why we can't hardly have a rational discussion with you. If anything, as of now, you're living proof that my book on psychology is correct because you have not given account and taken responsibility for your accusations, and you won't confess your sin.


After some introspection and prayer, God has revealed to me that you're quite right. I am guilty of unintentional and intentional railing accusations. Namely with the murmuring and passive aggressivism (I'm dividing them since I see the murmuring as the action and the passive aggressivism as the intent). I'll admit I was frustrated to hear about the discussion about what I said without me present. I assumed you guys were all trying to do that in order to just completely blast my position on things and puff yourselves up with "Look how we're right completely." But you're right. People have been trying to talk to me about it here, and it's also not like you guys have banned me and deleted or altered my posts so that no one could see both sides of the issue. I'm sorry for letting my pride and anger get in the way. I'm sorry to God for that too, as that doesn't bring Him any glory.

The unintentional railing accusations I'm guilty of are the calling you "arrogant, childish, etc etc". After the introspection and prayer, I can see that yes I did have some prior inclinations that you were those things, despite my best efforts to not hold those opinions. I don't know you, and it's hard to discern tone of voice or motivation of a person over written text. I'm sorry that I judged rashly, unfairly, without knowing the facts, and wrongly. I still hold to what I said at first, that correcting someone over a tiny detail that has nothing to do with the argument can be seen as prideful, and indeed can be done in pride. This is because of, again, my personal experience with the matter (both me doing it intentionally out of pride, and me doing it not with pride but the other person sees it that way). But I am sorry for thinking you were prideful in any sense, and I'm sorry to you, myself, and God that I tried suppressing that opinion.

I thank God that He has made me aware of what I've done wrong.

I'm also sorry for creating all my responses in the heat of anger, instead of perhaps waiting until I was more tempered and could think and respond more rationally. I also did it without trying to put myself into the shoes of the other person to understand their motives properly.

Admittedly, I still don't appreciate being called a liar without justification. Not so much on the hiding behind my intentions when calling you arrogant and those other things, because the denial of my opinion could be considered a form of lying, I think. It's at least hurtful to the other person when you don't own up to doing that. But on the accusation that I picked a fight (so to speak) over the word "ego" because I wanted to defend Freud's theory of the ego, and psychology as a whole. No, that's not true. Maybe my attention was drawn because it was the word "ego" and I'm familiar with Freud's work (and perhaps I agreed with Leslie on some level). Granted. But no that's not why I was attempting to help you. You have your opinion that all those who are involved with psychology do is lie and continually deny their responsibility for their sin (and teach others to do likewise). I hope that isn't blinding you to the truth of the matter. I also don't appreciate that it seems like to you, because I study psychology that I'm automatically of the devil, too (correct me if I'm wrong and this isn't what you think, or that it's not as simplistic as that). 

Nor do I appreciate being called a supporter of railers (Leslie) because I assumed to understand what he meant (which, I will remind you out of charity, so did you. And it seems we both assumed the same thing without asking Leslie, unless I'm mistaken) when he used that word and I addressed his use of the word. Again, that is why I didn't address his post as a whole, as it really didn't matter to me whether it was his e-mail or someone else's.



If you want to come to a Skype call on a Thursday night to discuss this with all of us to try and work this out for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ, I'll invite you, and I assure you, we will not treat you in the contemptuous manner you have treated me on this matter. However, you have got to stop the childish, passive aggressive (i.e. murmuring) slap-and-run comments like this because, as of right now, I am not seeing any evidence of the grief and godly sorrow you claimed (in your introduction post) to have had when you were saved because you are feigning humility in your posts.

murmur (n): a complaint half suppressed, or uttered in a low, muttering voice
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
-1Co 10:10


Also your invitation to the Thursday night Skype calls is making me see how irrational I was being. I'll have to at this point politely decline the invitation as I work Thursday nights. I really only needed to know that you weren't purposefully trying to not include me on a discussion, anyways. However, even if I was right and that's what you were doing, I still shouldn't be making generalized, slap-and-run comments. Especially not without knowing the facts for sure and also checking myself for pride. I am sorry for acting contemptuously and irrationally. I know words said with contempt can be personally hurtful. And I won't deny that perhaps I did that on purpose to incite a reaction. I'm disgusted with myself, knowing that I like to manipulate in that way.

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2019, 03:44:32 PM »
Hi Jackie,

I have been away for a while and it was quite some time before I could read everything and get an idea of what was going on.

All anyone here would ask of you is to repent in grief and godly sorrow, and then listen to what is being taught from the Word of God and allowing the Lord to show you the wisdom of it.  I hope you will do that before saying anything more.  I had to do this myself.  So has each person here who decided to become a part of the church.

Welcome and I hope you will get rid of any anger and malice and study to show yourself approved, especially in the psychology issue.  Our world is being duped and they don't even care.  I am saddened by it all.

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Matthew 9:13

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2019, 03:46:06 PM »
Then let's figure out another day to meet on Skype, and we'll get as many of us on as we can. If you're willing to discuss this matter with us, I don't see any reason that we should accommodate you as much as we can.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2019, 04:31:28 PM »
Then let's figure out another day to meet on Skype, and we'll get as many of us on as we can. If you're willing to discuss this matter with us, I don't see any reason that we should accommodate you as much as we can.

Chris, pardon me if I'm overstepping here, but I'm assuming you meant that you don't see any reason why we SHOULDN'T accommodate Jackie.


creationliberty

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Re: Psychology And The Bible
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2019, 04:49:20 PM »
Yep, that was a typo; I was in the middle of working on other things and didn't double check.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
-Psa 34:18